"Mirror, Mirror on the wall . . . where did he go, and why doesn't he call?"

The Benefits Of Courtship When Dating

Things sure have changed. These days, there’s a lot of “blurring the lines” between what was traditionally referred to as dating (courtship) and what is now commonly referred to as hooking up (brief casual sexual affair).

These are two entirely different things folks. Dating and courtship have a much greater chance of leading to a long term relationship. Hooking up is not dating and has much lower chances of success. As a matter of fact, the longest relationship, correction “arrangement,” that you can expect from a hook up is approximately 3 months – and that’s really pushing the maximum amount of time. More often than not, hooking up tends to amount to no more than a two week, to one month, long casual affair – otherwise known as a fling.

Don’t confuse the two. They are entirely different processes that will lead to entirely different outcomes.

There are reasons that Mother Nature invented the courtship process. It serves a very definitive purpose and a very important one at that – for both parties involved. You see, when the courtship process is taking place, there’s a lot of non-verbal communication taking place. There’s a lot going on behind the scenes subconsciously and a lot of information is being transmitted via behavior, gestures, body language, unspoken language and the subtle dynamics of feminine versus masculine that ultimately result in the ability to prove oneself worthy as a potential long term mate.

Let’s explore, shall we?

Traditional Dating: The Benefits Of The Courtship Phase


Traditional dating, otherwise known as the courtship phase, is a concept that refers to a process that involves traditional gender roles when it comes to male versus female – masculine versus feminine energy. It is a process that is traditionally done with the male taking the lead, masculine role – that of “impressing” - and the woman taking the submissive, feminine role – that of “observing.” And it’s also the chosen process of the true gentleman. (Punks, players and insecure men prefer the much easier hook up method which grants instant gratification to selfish needs and feeds ego. )

The courtship process involves what could commonly be referred to as a mating ritual. Just like in nature, when you see colorful male birds, puffing their feathers, dancing in front of a female bird, attempting to win her over in an attempt to prove himself worthy of successfully mating with her – that’s how the courtship process works.

The male initiates the courtship and during the early phase, he attempts to impress the woman. He makes special gestures meant just for her and he shows her that he is a good provider, that he is masculine, and that his leadership is to be trusted. If the woman happens to earn more money, a true gentleman still feels it’s important to prove himself worthy in the early stages of the courtship process.

Much the same way the male Satin Bowerbird seen here builds a fortress of seduction as a courtship display to attract a female mate. It’s not a nest, it’s a bower – a bachelor’s “play” pad. All of the efforts placed into the construction of this bachelor pad are intended for one sole purpose – to mate. (Men, there’s a lesson from Mother Nature here: Effort (and Romance) = Successful Mating. )

Male bowerbirds instinctively know that female bowerbirds are attracted to the color blue. As a result, blue objects tend to be the chosen trinkets gathered and presented as gifts, to adorn the seduction pad to lure the female bowerbird into it.

However, the female bowerbird doesn’t simply enter the first male bowerbird’s seduction pad that she comes across. Oh no. The female bowerbird visits all of the other male bowerbird’s seduction pads in her locale before stepping into any one of them to mate.

Is the female bowerbird a gold digger? Is she seeking a rich male bowerbird?

No. She’s seeking a good mate – one worthy of her attention and the luxury of mating. Because you see, in Mother Nature, not every male is privileged enough to mate. The mere fact that male genitalia are carried does not grant males the privilege to mate in nature. Male mating rights must be earned. Female mating rights are granted because females possess the ability to give the gift of life. (Which is why you don’t jump into bed with any man that comes along, ladies. Because he could end up the father of your child. It’s a fact, females have much more at risk when mating.)

A female bowerbird instinctively knows that a male bowerbird’s willingness to go the extra mile during the courtship phase signals him as a male that’s earned the mating privilege. And she will not enter the seduction pad until she’s reviewed all of the other male bowerbird options in her locale and she’s decided that this male bowerbird - is the one worthy of mating privileges.

She’s a smart cookie. She knows that a man’s willingness to provide is closely associated with his masculinity. A male bowerbird that falls short on his courtship display or the building of his seduction pad doesn’t get to mate – because the female bowerbird doesn’t feel he’s the best male representation of her species. And yes, female bowerbirds will even walk away from a male bowerbird seduction pad that includes a dollar bill (no joke, male bowerbirds have even stolen money as trinkets to include in their seduction pad displays).

To the female bowerbird, it’s not about money. It’s about the male’s willingness to provide for her and to properly earn the privilege of mating. The concept she’s focusing on is the male’s willingness to prove himself worthy of mating - not his monetary value.

It Amounts To A Comparable Difference: Provider And Leader Versus Non-Provider And Lazy



Imagine a man that’s found himself unemployed and out of work. A man that may be broke but at heart, has a “willingness” to be a good provider, to prove himself worthy and to do what he must do to provide for his mate and his family. We’ll call him Man A.

Now imagine a man in the same exact situation only this man lacks a “willingness” to be a good provider. We’ll call him Man B. Now, take those two men, each in the same exact situation, and let’s take a close look at the vast difference in ultimate outcome that results from each.

Man A: The Provider Who’s A Leader

Man A, the guy who is broke but has a willingness to be a good provider, will do whatever he can to provide. If it means cutting grass in the neighborhood, to doing odd jobs for family or neighbors, to taking a lower paying job just to keep food on the table – he will do it. He will man up and do whatever needs to be done to fulfill his male role, that of provider, and to prove himself a worthy mate.

As a result, Man A’s mate becomes increasingly impressed with how hard her man works to provide for his family. Her respect for him increases daily and she becomes very supportive and nurturing of him, encouraging him to continue to make forward progress and to be the best version of himself he can be. Man A’s efforts and willingness to provide keep the bond between them tight and their support of one another becomes the glue that keeps them together as a family unit.

Man B: The Non-Provider Who Is Lazy

Man B, however, is a different story. Man B sits on the sofa all day long doing nothing but making excuses for himself. Man B becomes resentful of the burden his mate and his family represent. He becomes difficult to speak to, he begins to distance himself from his mate and his family and he does nothing to improve his situation. Rather, he looks to his mate and he places the responsibility to provide squarely on her shoulders. As a result, Man B’s mate begins losing respect for him as a man, begins viewing him as a less worthy mate, and finds it increasingly difficult to be supportive and nurturing of him. Man B’s lack of effort and willingness to provide have caused a huge rift to appear in the bond between him and his mate and their support of one another begins to deteriorate, resulting in the ultimate breakdown of the family unit.

That’s the difference folks. It’s not about money, it’s about willingness, manhood and worth. And I imagine that many of the women reading this can relate – and would prefer to choose Man A over Man B as a long term mate. And it’s the courtship process that reveals a man’s willingness to take the lead role of provider. Unless you’d like to see Man B sitting on your sofa, resentful and unapproachable, I’d suggest using traditional dating and the courtship process as the path to a meaningful, happy, healthy, mutually successful long term relationship – for men and women both.

Because we can easily reverse the above roles, so let’s explore that for a moment.

It Works Both Ways: Nurturer And Supporter Versus Controlling And Demanding


Imagine a woman that’s an independent modern day woman. We’ll call her Woman A. She’s a woman that, regardless of her personal situation, is “willing” to fulfill her natural gender role of nurturer and supporter.

Now imagine a woman in the same exact situation only this woman lacks a “willingness” to be a nurturer and supporter, rather she prefers the lead role. We’ll call her Woman B. Now, take those two women, each in the same exact situation, and let’s take a close look at the vast difference in ultimate outcome that results from each.

Woman A: Nurturer And Supporter

Woman A is a woman that may or may not have money of her own, but at heart, has a willingness to comfortably fall into her natural role of supporter, nurturer. She is supportive, warm and nurturing (feminine). Unfortunately, her mate has found himself unemployed. However, Woman A, being the supportive, nurturing, feminine type begins to act like a cheerleader of sorts to her man. Encouraging him to be the best man he can be. Regardless of his lack of income, Woman A knows that if she fails to be the supportive force here, she will fail her mate and prove herself unworthy of him. She encourages her mate to push forward and through her nurturing support, her man feels more empowered as a man, assured that his mate is behind him 100%, and it is this support that compels him to successfully find employment in one form or another.

As a result, the man is forever grateful of the supportive, loving, nurturing effect Woman A’s presence brings into his life. She has proved a worthy mate. He knows that regardless of what happens, Woman A is there. She’s not going anywhere and she will continue to support her man in his endeavors. And it’s this reassurance and support that is received from Woman A that becomes the driving force for the man to rise and be the best man he can be. As a result, their bond is strengthened and it is her support and encouragement that becomes the ties that bind, keeping the family unit intact.

Woman B: Non-Nurturer, Controlling And Demanding

Woman B, however, is a different story. Woman B may or may not have money of her own, but at heart, she is “unwilling” to fall into her natural role of supporter and nurturer (feminine). Rather, Woman B is the opposite – she is demanding and controlling (masculine). Unfortunately, her mate has found himself unemployed. And Woman B, failing to be the supportive nurturing feminine type begins to act like a tyrant. She fails to encourage her man and to support him in any way. She fails to prove herself a worthy mate and fails to realize that she has a role here to play. She feels it necessary to emasculate the man, believing that negative reinforcement will somehow have a positive effect. She begins to point out his shortcomings and his current inability to provide. She fails her mate as a woman. Her emasculating comments and her tyrannical dictator-type control, her masculine energy, begins to outweigh that of her man’s and her man begins to feel like much less of a man through her eyes. Her lack of encouragement and support combined with her constant demands fails to compel the man to successfully find employment in one form or another.

As a result, the man becomes resentful of her oppression and begins to view her as unworthy. He feels stifled as a man, he feels weak and powerless. She effectively removes all of the things necessary for his success from the equation (freedom and power). Woman B’s man knows that regardless of what happens, Woman B will not be there for him and he will be unable to please her. He knows she will leave him and never fulfill her natural role of supporter and nurturer. And it’s this fear and oppression that is created by Woman B that becomes the destructive force in the relationship, thus resulting in Woman B’s man becoming increasingly unwilling to fulfill his natural role of provider. As a result, neither is any longer “willing” and their bond is broken and it is her lack of encouragement and support that becomes the wrecking ball that destroys the family unit.

There’s Much To Be Learned From The Ways Of Mother Nature


In Mother Nature, courtship rituals abound – and have remained since the dawn of time. It is the courtship ritual that helps both parties to learn what they can expect from the other and prove their worth to one another, displaying what each can contribute and bring to the table. It is the courtship ritual that reveals both parties “willingness” to fall into their natural gender roles.

What can speculatively be gleaned from the examples above is this. A man that fails to be a good provider in the early stages of dating will fail to be a good provider during the latter stages of a relationship - when it’s needed most. A man that fails to prove himself worthy in the early stages will prove himself unworthy in the latter stages. A woman that fails to be a good nurturer and supporter in the early stages of dating, will fail to be a good nurturer and supporter during the latter stages of a relationship - when it’s needed most. A woman that fails to prove herself worthy in the early stages will prove herself unworthy in the latter stages.

Get what I’m throwing down, folks? You feel me?

The courtship process serves a purpose folks, for men and women both. Skip over it and you’re not going to have a clue as to what you’re truly going to get in the end – until it’s too late. Perform the courtship ritual miserably or incorrectly, and you signal yourself an unworthy mate.

These are primal, biological concepts that are deeply ingrained in mankind. They haven’t changed in eons and they aren’t going to change anytime soon. Men look for a woman to be a good supporter and nurturer (feminine) – one that will help them achieve success and become the best man they can be. Every good man wants a good woman by his side and you’ve all probably heard the old saying, “Behind every good man is a good woman.”

And women look for a man to be a good provider (masculine) – one that is willing to do whatever is necessary under any circumstance, regardless of monetary worth, to provide and care for his family in order to become the best man he can be and to have a woman by his side that is a reflection of himself – the best woman she can be.

Conclusion: Follow Your Chosen Path



The above scenarios are simply that – possible scenarios that can potentially develop from the multitude of unspoken dynamics that take place within relationships. They were simply meant to be used as a demonstration of the “energy” exchange that takes place in relationships (masculine versus feminine).

They were also meant to show you how an individual’s behavior in the early stages of dating can translate into similar behavior later on down the line - thus, reinforcing the importance of noticing, not overlooking, red flags. And reinforcing the benefits of the courtship phase when dating.

The point is: Following the rules of Mother Nature and doing the work will reap you the greatest rewards - rewards that lead to ultimate success, happiness and fulfillment within relationships. Take the easy way out, take the shortcut and the route of the hook up – and you will fail time and time again to obtain happiness and fulfillment.

A hook up has higher odds of leading to a brief affair. A courtship has higher odds of leading to a long term relationship and also provides you valuable insights into the individual you’re dating. Thus granting you a peek at the “big picture,” what life with this individual would be like, should a relationship begin to develop.

It’s all in what you want folks, either a brief fling with a person you hardly know that leaves you feeling confused and used or a long term relationship with someone you’ve taken the time to get to know that leaves you feeling fulfilled and secure – so chose your path wisely and proceed accordingly.

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297 Comments:

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Anonymous said...

Pisces girl,

Are you referring to Matthew Hussey on Youtube? He's kind of cute, LOL.

In my case, my boyfriend (well I suppose he's not anymore) does not care one bit about how I dress. He does not care about makeup, does not care if I wear the same thing every day. Doesn't even care if I fart around him. He's into being comfortable with each other. He's great in that way.

But listening more is definitely important. It's hard for me to listen though when a guy is attacking me and I have to be on the defensive.

- Vivian

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Vivian,
"later on he started texting a bit and it felt off to me. He usually tells me who he's texting."

I suspect he's taking advice from well-meaning friends - and we all know how THAT goes ;-)

"I *need* a guy to baby me."

Actually, you need a man to NURTURE you, not baby you or treat you like a child.

"That he was waiting for me to say that I wanted to see him, or let's go to dinner, or whatever."

I'm starting to feel as if this man has been listening to friends, and is now hell bent on having what THEY think should be the case - turn true. I disagree that a woman should need to ASK for her man's attention on Valentine's Day.

However, I can totally see a bunch of confused male friends egotistically suggesting this to him. "Yea dude, SHE should take YOU out for once. If I were you, I wouldn't lift a finger for her on Valentine's Day if she doesn't ask you first."

Like misguided children trying to prove a point.

"And that I should have waited to see if he got home safe because that's what girl is supposed to do (what?? that's a guy's job!)."

Well, that's neither a man nor a woman's "job" - it's simply an action that shows you care, whether your man or woman.

"he said "Get a phone plan. You're 31. Did you forget how to buy minutes?? . . . that it was the 21st century and he wanted his girlfriend to work hard for him, to show it in action."

Well, truth be told - this sounds like a lot of "friends" chatter and bad advice to me. Lots of macho bullsh*t that I suspect isn't coming from him, but possibly from bad advice received from friends instead.

Because you DID start to take action. You ". . .made him dinner. Put on nice loungey music, had apple cider vinegar pills ready (to take before the meal), and water (which is what he prefers because he doesn't drink alcohol anymore). I even bused out to his favorite restaurant 35 minutes away to order Vietnamese takeout to bring back to my place, along with the quinoa and roasted potatoes I made."

That's actually a LOT of effort for one dinner - and it's only been one week or two. He needs to give time for this, it isn't going to happen overnight and stomping your feet and repeating bad advice received from friends isn't going to influence someone to step up their game for you.

I have nothing really to base this on. . .but my gut is telling me this is a lot of macho BS coming from friends meant to get him to take a "hard line" with you. Which again, is NOT the way to influence others and exhibit patience and time for things to change and grow in a new direction.

This all just seems really out of character for him and quite honestly, unnatural coming from him. Because this was not the tone or the attitude he displayed for months prior to this at all. To me, it sounds like friends "firing him up."

(To other ladies reading this - how about your gut, what does it say? Does this sound like bad advice coming from well-meaning friends possibly?)

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

"I thought he was traditional!"

Yea, so did i - which is why I'm not entirely convinced this is coming from him. Prior to this, his words AND his actions aligned with traditional dating behaviors. And now, all of a sudden - he's doing a 180 degree switch and coming across like a d*ck. And I'm just not buying that this is really "him" speaking here. I'm not buying that deep down inside he feels this way "it was the 21st century and he wanted his girlfriend to work hard for him."

That sounds like something friends said to him and he repeated. "Dude, what the hell are you doing. It's the 21st century you know." So now he's drinking the koolaid and possibly listening to a bunch of macho buffoons.

Because that's exactly what this sounds like to me - macho, buffoon bad-attitude and resentment about a woman who expects and prefers tradition over 21st century dysfunctional approaches. If this man truly felt this way deep down inside, he NEVER would've dated you for as long as he did without it showing in his actions prior to this. Instead, his actions would've aligned with these beliefs and he'd have barely lifted a finger for you - which was not the case up until about two weeks ago. . .when he happened to admit to you that he spoke to friends about this.

Gee, really, you spoke to friends about this? Huh, I'd have never guessed LOL ;-)

And he more or less even gives away the fact that yea - this is a "change" for him, when he said, "He wants me to bend over backwards for him for a change." For a change. Interesting. So apparently this IS a change from his normal needs, desires, and expectations. He's doing a complete 180 degree switch here, and I'm not buying that is what HE TRULY WANTS OR EXPECTS.

I suspect this is what his friends TOLD HIM he needs to be like. "Be a d*ck and treat her ignorantly and she'll chase you." Seems to be the dysfunction and toxicity that a lot of modern men buy into these days without realizing it all only leads them on a dark, lonely path to a proliferance of one night stands, brief hookups, flings and meaningless affairs. None of which leads to a real relationship. I bet his friends aren't even IN RELATIONSHIPS. . .because they're acting like this, yet their not bright enough to put two-and-two together to see it leads nowhere as far as a real relationship is concerned.

"he will start treating me poorly due to his lack of respect."

Correct that to his "newfound lack of respect." Because that is NOT who this guy was, or has been, at all.

"I'm also very turned off he keeps wanting me to initiate to take him out to dinner, or go somewhere."

I must admit - I am turned off by this as well. The very thing that was attractive and impressive about this man was the lead he took, as a man. The fact that he was a willing provider and protector. That type of masculine energy is VERY attractive to women.

But now, he's starting to exhibit feminine energy, which is a big turnoff. He fails to see the tradeoff here and the value that a woman and her feminine contributions to a mans life actually bring into his life. For instance, many a scientific study shows that married men actually tend to live longer than unmarried, single men.

Why?

Because of the "caretaker" in their life - their wife. Married men eat better, are generally in better health overall and experience less stress than single unmarried men. And while that may not sound like a lot, in the end it amounts to literally tacking additional years onto a married mans life.

A Harvard Medical School Study reveals:

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

"A major survey of 127,545 American adults found that married men are healthier than men who were never married or whose marriages ended in divorce or widowhood. Men who have marital partners also live longer than men without spouses; men who marry after age 25 get more protection than those who tie the knot at a younger age, and the longer a man stays married, the greater his survival advantage over his unmarried peers.

Japanese scientists reported that never-married men were three times more likely to die from cardiovascular disease than married men. And a report from the Framingham Offspring Study also suggests that marriage is truly heartwarming. Scientists evaluated 3,682 adults over a 10-year period. Even after taking major cardiovascular risk factors such as age, body fat, smoking, blood pressure, diabetes, and cholesterol into account, married men had a 46% lower rate of death than unmarried men."

SO YOU SEE - THE LOVE OF A WOMAN HAS TREMENDOUS VALUE TO A MAN.

"I told him I had got him a Valentine's and 3 months anniversary gift, and he said, "So you wanted me to make plans, come pick you up, in order to get it?"

Umm, yea - that's what real men do for a woman they love. What is so absurd about that all of a sudden?

"What kind of girl asks her boyfriend out on Valentine's?"

I don't know - but I DO KNOW. . .you don't want to be that girl, trust me.

"As if he doesn't genuinely care and badly wants to be with me (I started getting a feeling he stayed just for the sex)."

I don't think that's the case. I don't get the impression that he's that type of man. Besides, if it were only all about sex for him, he wouldn't have done the things he did for you, nor would he have stuck around. Men who are seeking sex only generally don't lift a finger for woman and they don't stick around beyond the 2nd or 3rd date if they haven't gotten laid by then. Sex seekers give themselves away pretty early on through their lack of action and lack of reliablity and consistency. If they're not getting sex by the 2nd or 3rd date, they leave ;-)

"I can't bring myself to text him after he 1) attacked me 2) talked down to me 3) deleted the app that we used to text 4) told me "you have my number." He's acting very feminine right now."

Well, it saddens me to say this but - I agree.

He has now suddenly somehow ventured into territory much like entitled macho assholes behave. I'm disappointed in the complete and total personality change he's displaying now all of a sudden - particularly when you, yourself, were finally getting the chance to put into action the changes he desired. Why back out when the things you asked for suddenly start to happen? To prove a point? And who are you proving this point to - a bunch of cave men friends that are most likely single themselves because they act like this? Seems pointless to me.

At this point, let this cool down. It may reach a natural end here. Or, he may resurface in a month or two singing a whole new tune (after realizing that cave men friends don't know women at all - they only know to come at them like controlling, entitled imbeciles.

I know you seem to think that that "make or break" talk is what prompted this change of attitude with him. But I don't. His actions and behavior prior to this were aligned with the traditional.

And I remember that during that "make or break" talk - he told he actually spoke to friends about this for the first time.

And since he spoke with them - he's apparently now become one of them. :-(

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

So for right now, I wouldn't take any action. Particularly while he's in this mindset, or it'll only end poorly. You could text via your phone as he suggested, but quite honestly, I don't think it'd change his attitude right now. Especially if this is as I suspect, and he has outside influences prompting him to behave this way. But if you like to test that, shoot him a text via his phone as he suggested and see how he reacts to that. If it's more of the same, go quiet on him and give him some space.

Because short of that, right now there's not much else you can do if he's refusing to be open to any of it, or refusing to acknowledge the recent change and attempts you've already made (with the dinner) and willing to understand that these changes will take time to come to fruition.

And this crap he's spewing now all of a sudden about you asking him out - I wouldn't buy into ANY of that. Is he that insecure that he needs you to court him like a woman? I don't think so. I suspect this is macho BS coming from friends and if he's hell bent on listening to that. . .then he'll have to go date insecure women who actually do that sort of thing.

But I suspect if he does that - he's not going to like the quality of women he meets AT ALL. I suspect if he does that, he'll find himself dating very insecure, clingy women who behave desperately. . .and he's most likely going to find that he's actually not attracted to that.

Because a man like him seeks an equal, and not an insecure doormat. Which is what the advice I suspect he's gathering from friends is going to attract right back to him if he follows it - a slew of needy, insecure, clingy doormats that he'll actually find himself trying to run away from and avoid.

I'm sorry to hear all of this. But you know what? There's still a silver lining here. You've learned so much from this experience and whether you realize it or not - you've GROWN from it. It may take a while for that to begin manifesting in your behavior, but after a while you're going to realize just how much this entire experience actually helped you.

So stay positive - this was not a total loss and you should be very proud of yourself for being willing to step outside your comfort zone here a bit and make efforts to enact real change in your life.

THAT is NOT easy - at all.

But you've actually done it and now the path before you will benefit from those efforts.

Be very proud of yourself Vivian - it ain't over till it's over. . .let's see if the fat lady sings :-)

Gem50 said...

@ Vivian,
I've tried to read your comments about Gentleman from July. It sounds to me as though Gentleman put his best foot forward, making ALOT of effort to win you over but did not get what he was hoping for in the timeframe he was hoping.

The situation could be a matter of two people having different emotional timelines, and here's the unfortunate part -- you didn't talk to each other about it prior to the doubts and frustration taking over some prime real estate in both of your minds.

When you told him you loved him, I am sure he expected to see in/from you how HE acts towards another when he's in love. When he didn't receive from you what he expected from a woman who said she loved him, he began to feel "played" and told you so (and has been acting as such whenever any doubt creeps in).

Unfortunately, I think his pulling back triggered your insecurities which led to your suspicions of his behavior.

I applaud your willingness to look at yourself and the work you are doing to identify and take steps to become a better partner. It's not an easy task, but well worth the work.

At this point, I agree with Ms. Mirror. I'd take a step back, giving yourself some air. If you start to miss him in your life, that is a good thing to have to deal with.

But don't deal with it by contacting him so that he can fix your uncomfortableness or ease your fears. Take this time to continue to work on yourself so that if/when he comes back you are able to talk to him openly, with respect for yourself and for him, and hopefully he will do the same. :-)

Please keep in touch. (hugs)



Gem50 said...

@ Vivian,
I neglected to also add, " and listen to each other" to the "talking with each other."

I hope it happens for you both :-)

Anonymous said...

(Vivian - Part 1)

Mirror,

The friends he talked to (at least what he told me) were his best guy friend and his girlfriend (who have been together for 7 years) and other girls.

He talked to them about 1) me needing time to develop feelings (they all feel it should be full on in the beginning) and 2) whether the sex was painful in the beginning for the girls (he said after a couple of times the girls felt fine).

My gut tells me he didn't actually ask other girls because asking about pain during sex seems like a really personal question..and he doesn't seem the type to maintain female friendships.

His best guy friend seems like a chill non-macho guy (I met him once). But hard to say who's been influencing him.

I guess it's even more disappointing if there *aren't* any external influences at work.

You said you think this is out of character and unnatural for him, but do you think it's possible that he has *always* been this entitled and childish, deep down, and his true colors only came out after we had sex (3 months later)?

His feelings that I wasn't "doing" anything started surfacing mid-January after we had sex.

I recall after the second time we had sex - he brought up that he didn't think I contributed, didn't really bring anything to our relationship whereas he thought he was doing so much for me/us.

He didn't feel any of my feminine energy - of appreciation, support, admiration - was really "doing" anything; he thought it was a given in a relationship.

And he once again said that it was the 21st century... that if I was truly feminine, then my entire schedule would revolve around his, I'd cook, clean, I'd do what the man said and wanted.

He still continued to treat me semi-well even after that conversation, but then I suggested we break up like a week later and then when we got back together, he wasn't quite the same. I felt like his mind was taking over his heart, whereas before his heart dominated.

Or perhaps it was his plan all along. He did tell me in our make or break conversation that he saw the first 3 months as an investment.

He thought I would have fallen for him by now, and since he's working full-time and going back to school, I would reciprocate and help carry the relationship.

I think for him to feel *loved*, I'd have to do all the things he was doing FOR ME - e.g. rearranging schedule, getting takeout, cooking, taking me out, messaging me when he got back home, replying texts quickly, etc. Things that don't come naturally to me (I'm less action-oriented).

He said that he wanted to be appreciated (which is why he wanted me to ask him out)... but it makes me sad that he wanted me to prove that on Valentine's day of all days (I did tell him that it didn't feel great).

He did try to be cuter/softer with me in person (what I told him I needed), but I can tell it wasn't going to be a permanent change because he told me that he didn't want to baby me too much or I would get weak. He wanted me to be strong and stand on my own.

I interpreted that as - he wanted me to stop taking his anger outbursts so personally and just suck it up, even though I've told him it feels like a stab in the heart when he blows up at me (which is a regular occurrence, LOL).

So he wanted ME to change for him, but he wasn't willing to make permanent changes to keep me happy.

It seems like he's only willing to do things for me that he naturally does anyways.

I forgot to mention one point: his mother blows up all the time - at him and his father. He HATES that about his mother, yet he does it himself! His father, on the other hand, is soft-spoken, kind, and doesn't get angry easily (kind of like me, except I get angry but I don't express it).

Anonymous said...

(Vivian - Part 2)

I wish he would just apologize, but I feel he's too stubborn and has the attitude that I should contact him first.

That if I don't, then it means I don't care and wasn't willing to be the girlfriend he wanted (it's important to him that I have a phone plan so he can reach me at all times).

He knows I was on prepaid because I was planning to move down to SF and didn't want to carry a contract. I've just been procrastinating on getting a proper phone plan.

Mirror, do you think there's any way to turn this around so I get the old him back -- and maintain his respect for me?

I'm worried if I contact him now, he will not have reached a point where he has done enough reflecting to realize he said some hurtful things, shouldn't have waited for me to ask him out on Valentine's, and he was being childish in deleting the app. Your article on issuing consequences comes to mind.

At the same time - if I ignore him too long, he's going to feel I don't care about him/us, right?

I don't know how long I should do NC for, or whether it's the best thing to do in this situation.

While it was childish of him to throw out the "you have my number", he did want to call me on Sunday to talk it out... just that I couldn't because my mom was over and I didn't want to top up my minutes yet.

Thanks for your support, mirror. :-) I'm trying to look at it as a learning experience and to be proud of myself that I, for the first time, made a genuine effort in changing myself and my patterns.

I don't want it to be over (it's the hopeful in me), but if we both stubbornly continue NC... at what point am I actually single and free to date again?

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

Hi Gem50!

Yes, I do think it comes down to incompatible emotional timelines. I'm fairly cautious and no longer get infatuated like I used to, because the ugly part of a person usually starts surfacing around the 3-4 month mark.

And hey, I was right about it in gentleman's case.

Hard to believe the man that I met on our first date (I was so impressed he paid $60 for my VIP amusement park ticket) - would turn out to be so entitled, feminine, childish, and self-centered.

I shouldn't have blurted out that I loved him. It *felt* like love -- but it's the connection that I have with him that I love, not that I love *him* as a person.

"I applaud your willingness to look at yourself and the work you are doing to identify and take steps to become a better partner. It's not an easy task, but well worth the work."

Thank you, gem! Even though he's done a 180 on me, the hopeful part of me still fantasizes about going back to the way things were. If I could turn back time, I would treat him better, in ways that made him feel loved and cared for.

I do miss him, but I feel equal relief in not having him in my life.

He's really hard on me, and pushes me to work on my goals every single day. While it's a good thing, it does make me feel unhappy and pressured (I prefer my partner to be encouraging and supportive).

I don't know what will happen, but I trust that if we belonged together, we would stay together somehow.

(hugs back)

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

Mirror,

I am embarrassed to say this....

I caved.

I had drinks with a friend (shouldn't have!) and she said that it was likely over because gentleman hasn't contacted me in 4 days. She told me to be objective and look at the big picture (ie - the bad times are outweighing the good), but I was too emotional.

I just got sadder and sadder... went home and saw that my brother texted me that I should just call/text gentleman and end it, and end my pain.

So I texted him: I don't get why you aren't willing to make easy changes for me - to not blow up in anger, when I have tried to make you happy
What you said was upsetting and disrespectful

I was going to save it as a draft first but pressed the wrong button and it sent! Oh god.

I'm not looking forward to his response tomorrow. Maybe he will continue to say stupid angry things like a child.

I feel like I took 5 steps forward, and now I'm 10 steps back.

- Vivian

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Vivian,
"they all feel it should be full on in the beginning"

Sigh. . .I suppose that's a reflection of this new "instant gratification" era we live in. We somehow do not even think it's reasonable to let love grow, even though we're smart enough to know that's exactly the way it roots in.

"You said you think this is out of character and unnatural for him, but do you think it's possible that he has *always* been this entitled and childish, deep down, and his true colors only came out after we had sex (3 months later)?"

When someone feels like that - they "live it" ya' know? It shows in their behavior and it shows in their history and past. People can keep up a front, but most times, they're bailing after a couple of weeks when they're not able to work the situation to their advantage.

If he always felt this way - I do not believe he would've acted the complete opposite of that for 3 entire months. Unless he's some seasoned con-artist type who's honed his skills real well, which I don't think he is.

"he once again said that it was the 21st century... that if I was truly feminine, then my entire schedule would revolve around his, I'd cook, clean, I'd do what the man said and wanted."

That sounds more like a marriage than a dating situation. And it's got a 1950's ring of "domination" to it. A healthy marriage is a true partnership - and not something where one controls another as he's insinuating. Besides, it was only 3 months. What does he expect? Is everything supposed to move at the speed of light these days?

After 90 days you're supposed to be cooking, cleaning, and taking orders LOL ;-)

"I think for him to feel *loved*, I'd have to do all the things he was doing FOR ME - e.g. rearranging schedule, getting takeout, cooking, taking me out, messaging me when he got back home, replying texts quickly, etc. Things that don't come naturally to me (I'm less action-oriented)"

Well, as we've talked about before. . .any man is going to expect things along those lines once he's in love with you and you've made a commitment to one another. Because things like that do make people feel loved by another. It's the give and take, sacrifice, and work that comes with the territory of a committed relationship.

"Mirror, do you think there's any way to turn this around so I get the old him back -- and maintain his respect for me?"

I wouldn't make any moves just yet. And truthfully, you need to think about whether or not a committed relationship is even what you want. Because there is a LOT of WORK and a LOT of SACRIFICE involved.

You're referring to the "old him" as the man he was in the beginning, before he started asking for his needs to be met. Well, eventually anyone is going to expect you to fulfill their needs. No one is going to "do" for you endlessly without ever receiving fulfillment of their own needs back in return, ya' know?

Is a committed relationship and the work and sacrifice involved even what you want? I'd give that some serious thought while he cools down a bit in the meantime.

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

"At the same time - if I ignore him too long, he's going to feel I don't care about him/us, right?"

Well, the thing is - he feels that way anyway. And again, before doing anything like that, have you really thought about whether or not you're really ready, or even want, a committed relationship and all that comes with it? I think you need to get clear with yourself on your own wants and needs before making any moves.

"I don't know how long I should do NC for"

That's usually 30 days.

"at what point am I actually single and free to date again?"

You're free right now. I feel it ended when he said "I'm deleting the app, you have my number." That's like saying, "I give up. Call me - maybe I'll answer." And when you didn't, and he didn't either. . .that's more or less it ya' know? There are no commitments in place anymore it appears.

And again, think about whether or not you're even ready for a relationship. Because if you're anxious to date again, my guess is that it'd be best to remain single and not reignite this situation with this man if that's the case.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Vivivan,
"I am embarrassed to say this....I caved."

Well, we'll see how this turns out. However, If I could make a suggestion for the future, so that you don't take actions that make you feel bad about yourself or that are regretful to you in any way. . .when you're emotions are heightened - do not take action of them. Instead, shut your phone off and give yourself 24 hours to think things through before taking any action.

I'm not saying this will be a regrettable action. However, it did make you feel embarrassed about yourself and that's the part I'm really referring to here.

If you take the time to think things through before taking any action while in a state of heightened emotions. . .then you're able to stand confidently behind the actions you do end up taking :-)

Practicing this type of self-discipline will enable you to control the feeling of being on an "emotional roller coaster" all the time. It will help you to think through decisions properly before taking action, so that you are confident in the decisions and actions you do ultimately end up taking.

Anonymous said...

@Vivian
What comes to mind when I read your story is that your gentleman expects more of you than you are willing or able (or both) to give him. At least now. And since he feels he isn´t getting what he feels he should get he is frustrated and all of his bad behaviour stems from that in my view. And the fact that you aren´t where he would like you to have is neither one´s fault. I think you are doing your best and that in itself is amazing.:-)
Hopeful

Anonymous said...

Dear mirror,

Thanks for your advice, I'll be mindful the next time my emotions are heightened and I am tempted to send a text. Will turn off my phone and go sleep instead.

In this case, texting him was probably the right thing to do....because gentleman just dumped me. I have a feeling I shouldn't have done NC for that long.

He wrote:

"I don't think this is going to work. What I said on Monday and last Sunday clearly hasn't gotten through to you. Or maybe you are not seeing it my way or you disagree with me. Regardless of which of the 3 things it is the outcome in my mind is the same... And that is we can continue to be friends but that's all..."

The 3 things he's referring to is: 1) being able to reach me by text/call when he needs me 2) doing things for him as he has done for me 3) engage in intimacy (which he did acknowledge I was working on - i.e. the painful sex)

As you said, I was already making the changes he desired... why wouldn't he even try to give it a chance? Instead he jumped to the "let's be friends" line.

Again - while I am not 100% ready to doing the work necessary to maintain our relationship, I was at least 80% willing. In my mind that is progress. I *wanted* it to work.

I'm thinking of waiting for him to get off work today to have a proper talk with him. He's more vulnerable in person, and doesn't seem such a hard-ass.

He liked it when I surprised him at the gym one time, so perhaps this will have the same effect. I don't believe for a second he can say all that to my face.

If I genuinely see in his eyes he really does want to let this go and move on with his life - that's fine. I'll live. But if he's just hiding behind his hurt/anger, it means there's a chance, right?

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

Hopeful,

Thanks for saying that! I am doing my best, and really trying (though I know my old habits/fears are slipping in and making me act a bit unstable, LOL).

The weird thing is, I realized that I treat my friends better than the gentleman.

I offer to pay for drinks/pool/food when out with my best girlfriend, offer to cook if she hadn't eaten yet, tell her where I am incase she might be in the area and wanted to meet up, invite her out to events even if she might not be into them, share everything with her, ask her for a hug if I am feeling sad. I try to take care of her.

Yet I *never* did any of those things for/with the gentleman. I'm starting to see why he wasn't feeling fulfilled in a relationship with me. Not that it excuses any of the mean things he said during his angry outburst.

But it's not really over until I've done what I could... so I'm going to see if gentleman still feels anything for me if I do end up visiting him at work today.

I'll keep you updated. I feel hopeful today. :-)

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

Mirror,

I have an update for you. I met up with the gentleman in front of his office building. After awkward silence, he asked if I had something to tell him.

I told him I wasn't going to be friends; either he was my boyfriend or he wasn't. He once again repeated the 3 things that he needed... he felt like we were arguing last time and he didn't want to because we were going in the same loop.

I forgot what I said, but he replied "Ok but then don't argue my conditions, I told you before it's what I need. I thought I was being clear. It's fine if you say - you know I've tried, I'll just keep trying."

At this point I don't even remember what we were arguing about last time.

But he gave me that soft beautiful look again -- and he asked me, so what do you want to do - go home, or wait for me to finish my homework in 20-30?

I wasn't about to leave after 5 minutes of talking, so I waited inside the building for about 20 minutes. Just watched Youtube to pass the time, lol.

Oh and when he talked to the security guard earlier - he did refer to me as his girlfriend.

After he was done, he held my hand on the way to the train. It was a little icy/awkward, though. We're hanging by a thread.

While waiting for the train, I asked if he still cared... he said "of course I care" as if it was a ridiculous question. Don't know, seems like he lost feelings.

On the train, we just small talked... he was really tired, we looked lovingly at each other... then discussed meeting tomorrow evening to talk.

Right now, I kind of feel like he's so firm on what he needs to the point that it seems like I'm just catering to him completely. Like the relationship will be about him.

I've told my best friend and brother about what happened - and they feel like he's a jerk who's taking advantage of me, and mindgaming me to his benefit.

Mirror - do you think he is, and am I *stupid* to try to make gentleman happy in light of him being a dck lately? I still remember him saying he wanted me to bend over backwards for him.. that it was 21st century... that he wanted me to take him out for valentine's...

What do I do about those things? If I say I won't do them, then he'll be like - well I told you about these 3 conditions, it's not going to work then.

I feel like there's no way I can win in this situation. That's the part that makes me a little upset. No one I know supports the relationship I have with the gentleman, after I told them that he put me down about the phone plan, sounded all entitled, etc.

At the same time - maybe I'm just stubborn and want to TRY to treat him as well as I treat my friend, and really see if what he said earlier was true... that the more I show I care in action, the more he will treat me better.

I don't mind trying, committing, doing the relationship work... but I think at this point, I don't fully trust that he's not just taking advantage of the situation (that I want to make him happy). Guess I'm scared.

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

Mirror,

Sorry, just need to vent a little.

I feel that gentleman is done with me, but continuing because he enjoys seeing me get all desperate.

Our roles have completely reversed.

He doesn't seem to be eager to see me anymore... when I asked him today "come you come over to talk later" he replied "I just got to the gym, not 100% sure I will have time. Can I let you know later?"

I don't know if this means he won't have time tonight AT ALL. He's putting me on hold, just like I have done to him in the past.

Thing is - he is the one who wanted me to show I cared, wanted me ask to see him... I've been trying those things and I don't feel I'm getting a positive response. I'm not convinced that he wants what he wants.

Isn't this scenario JUST like comments in the DM thread about men who request women call more often, text more often, or do whatever more often... and when the woman does, they DISAPPEAR or pull back?

- Vivian

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Vivian,
"I've told my best friend and brother about what happened - and they feel like he's a jerk who's taking advantage of me, and mindgaming me to his benefit. . .No one I know supports the relationship I have with the gentleman, after I told them that he put me down about the phone plan, sounded all entitled, etc."

But - have you been honest with them about your part in this? Because if you haven't, they're only hearing all the negative things he's doing, and not the negative things you've played a part in. If you have not been honest with them. . then they can't comment with any real advantage, ya' know?

"do you think he is, and am I *stupid* to try to make gentleman happy in light of him being a dck lately?"

No, I don't think this man is a gamer. And no - it's NEVER silly to try and do the "work" involved in a relationship with someone you love and care for. Relationships are not easy, and not always fun. And if you bail at the first sight of obstacles or challenges, you'll never be able to have one.

"I still remember him saying he wanted me to bend over backwards for him.. that it was 21st century... that he wanted me to take him out for valentine's...What do I do about those things? If I say I won't do them, then he'll be like - well I told you about these 3 conditions, it's not going to work then."

Well, bending over backwards is something that should be done on occasion when in a relationship, but it should not be a 24/7 thing. If that happens, then the relationship becomes unbalanced and one-sided. You bend over backwards and make compromises from time to time when need be, and he bends over backwards and makes compromises from time to time when need be - that's what teamwork is about. And every relationship is a team, a couple, and not a one-man show.

The Valentine's thing. . .I'm sorry, but a woman asking her man out for Valentine's Day - seems very unnatural to me. I've cooked for that holiday, I've purchased gifts for that holiday, I've baked for that holiday, I've done all kinds of things for that holiday. . .but I have never ever asked a man out and then taken him on a date like a woman for that holiday. And quite honestly, most men believe that's a holiday geared for women anyway, so I'm really having trouble understanding that one.

"Thing is - he is the one who wanted me to show I cared, wanted me ask to see him... I've been trying those things and I don't feel I'm getting a positive response. I'm not convinced that he wants what he wants."

Well, I wasn't all that convinced that this was all coming from HIM in the first place.

And I've spoken about this concept many times before on the site. Men THINK they want a woman to pursue them. Men THINK they want a woman to ask them out. Men THINK they want a woman to call them and text them. Men THINK they want YOU to pursue THEM -- but then you do and they lose respect for you, ultimately begin to lose interest in you, and then finally turn and run from you.

It's the damndest thing.

"Isn't this scenario JUST like comments in the DM thread about men who request women call more often, text more often, or do whatever more often... and when the woman does, they DISAPPEAR or pull back?"

Yes -- it's just as I've written above. . .and now we're all seeing it in action.

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

I'm thinking this man needs some space right now. He may not think he does, but I believe it would do him some good quite honestly. Because he's at a point right now where he's convinced that turning the tables entirely here and flip-flopping the masculine and feminine roles is what will make him happy. And watching how he's now behaving once he starts to get his way and those things he's requesting begin to happen. . .makes me wonder if he even really knows what it is that he needs that will make him happy in the first place.

I think he THINKS he knows what he WANTS - but I'm not convinced that what he THINKS HE WANTS. . .is ACTUALLY WHAT HE NEEDS.

Because the minute he begins to get what it is he claims he needs and wants, he now seems more unhappy than ever and bolts.

Think about it. The 3 things he said he wanted:

1) being able to reach me by text/call when he needs me
2) doing things for him as he has done for me
3) engage in intimacy (which he did acknowledge I was working on)

He was beginning to receive TWO OUT OF THREE of them. You were beginning to do things for him, and you were attempting to work through intimacy issues. The only thing that hadn't ironed itself out yet, according to your own admission, was him being able to reach you at the drop of a hat.

So how is it that receiving 2 out of 3 of your "must haves" in a relationship -- suddenly makes you more unhappy and dissatisfied than ever? So much so that, before you're even able to fully integrate these into your lifestyle as a couplt. . .he bails because he's now so unhappy.

This is simply NOT adding up.

"Cause two out of 3 ain't bad:" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5hWWe-ts2s

So why bolt right when the real work begins to take effect? Unless someone is advising you to make a "power play" for control here. . .

This is suddenly starting to venture outside of "gentlemen" territory here, and into a lot of what I've seen and wrote about before. And it's making me wonder where this is really all coming from.

Don't get me wrong, we all have needs to be met. And I believe relationships require that give and take. The thing is, you'd think that seeing those needs suddenly be met. . .would NOT compel you to suddenly bolt once you start getting what it is you claimed you need.

Anonymous said...

@Vivian, Mirror
if I may again... As I wrote above, my gut tells me that (provided this man really is a gentleman) he is doing these stunts because he is frustrated. If you put yourself in his shoes - what has happened from his perspective? He meets a nice, beautiful girl, courts her, does a lot to win her over and what he gets is a tentative response on the girl´s side - she isn´t there yet, she needs more time, etc. Then they have sex - I don´t think that what happened can´t be overcome but again, from his viewpoint, the girl doesn´t seem to be so much into him, he even feels bad about himself because he causes her pain, etc. I think at that point he is hurt and maybe unconsciously starts to pay the girl back. He is frustarted and ventilates it through being mean to her. She makes some effort to mend the relationship but he still feels offended and doesn´t accept it. That´s where they are now.

Vivian, like Mirror I also think that the best thing is to have some space now - both of you. And both of you will see after some time whether you will miss each other. I understand how nervewrecking it is now for you but as you wrote above - if it is meant to be it will be. And maybe you need that space more than the gentleman because you have been under pressure throughout the relationship I guess. Perhaps you will realize how much you want him, which will ultimately benefit your interactions. Who knows? I think that in matters of heart you can never tell for sure. I see it as open. And despite his dumping you I still think that it´s more or less up to you whteher you will reunite or not.

I wish all the best to you, Mirror and everybody,
Hopeful

Gem50 said...

@ Vivian,
The only way you are going to know gentlemen's intent is to let him show you. From what I've read, it sounds like you are initiating. You mistakenly sent the text, then you challenged his "I don't think this is going to work" text. Then you went to his work (I think it was work), met him outside the building, and then waited for him to finish up whatever he had to do.

I think him holding your hand on the way to the train WAS being a gentleman. If he didn't want to take your hand, he wouldn't.

Ms. Mirror has commented that she thinks he needs some space; I think you need some space as well. Unfortunately, you're in a spot right now where I don't know how you can pull back completely NC without gentleman perceiving it as another flip-flop.

Please consider giving yourself a break from this in the form of waiting for gentleman to contact you. When he does, demonstrate with your mood that you are happy to hear from him and let him lead. Then you will have your chance to show him your efforts to provide him what he is asking for.

If you continue to chase him via texts or appearances, you won't learn where he's "at" with you. As Ms. Mirror has written, a man will show you by his actions.

If I may, I'd like to comment on one other thing as well. Regarding your brother: If you are as close to him as I am with one of mine, my brother can sometimes NOT be the best person to talk with regarding men. He's great with light-hearted, overall behavior of men stuff, etc., but he is very protective of me. He cannot look at my relationships with men without his protective behaviors kicking in and clouding his own judgement. Just another thing to think about dear.

Anonymous said...

(Vivian - Part 1)

Mirror,

I have been honest with my friends about what I haven't done for gentleman (e.g. never took him out, never initiated, never cooked, never really made him feel special beyond words), but I know they're all on my side so they will be biased against him.

Update: I met gentleman today for a talk. It was really bad in that he gave me several disgusted, impatient looks like he couldn't tolerate me (yet he still hugged/kissed me).

I told him I was already trying to do the 3 things he wanted (I've actually started to text him back quicker, so I started fulfilling ALL 3 conditions) -- yet felt like he wasn't any happier.

Then I asked why was he distant the past couple of days.

Guess what? He brought up MORE things he was dissatisfied with, mirror!!! Incredible.

He was very unhappy that I wasn't as hardworking as he was, that I slept late/got up late, that I have fun all the time, that I don't work on my business and instead I chat with my friends or I help them out.

He felt like I was lazy and that I wasn't sharing my passion for achieving my work goals every single day. He said he was telling me this now, because he didn't want it to be a year later and then he would break up with me because I wasn't what he wanted.

He said as long as I could do those things.. show him in action I was working hard... that he would be there and still be the same person. Huh? I doubt this.

He got up in anger - after I was trying to recall our exact convo when I said I wanted to see him and he didn't respond positively - because he said I was once again trying to turn it into an argument.

He just flips out so friggin easily!!

You know mirror, his actions did seemed aligned with being an old-fashioned gentleman....but more and more I feel like I don't know the damn guy. He shared his thoughts of convos we had in the early stages of dating... and it shows such an ugly side of him.

He brought up how - when I told him I wanted a man to make more than me (on our 3rd date when we became exclusive), it rubbed him the wrong way but he thought it was because I was really ambitious and wanted to make sure a guy made more than me.

When it turns out that I only made $1K/day for a day which is nothing.. he thought I made $1K/day EVERY DAY. So I said, "That's $30,000 a month." He replied, "So? It's possible."

Of course I know it's possible, but how many women do? I don't even have the desire to. Anyways the point is - at the time when we had that conversation (in January), he was very loving/supportive...said he didn't care if I made $100/month as long as I was happy and working towards my goals.

He felt it was more important that I supported him by making him a nice meal, rearranged my schedule, etc. (Which I was starting to do!!)

Yet today he was putting me down for not making 30,000 a month as he thought. Either that was the way he felt ALL ALONG, or his views changed recently.

After he left, I felt so upset. I immediately talked to my good guy friend about it and he said that he felt gentleman liked me for who I *could* be but not for who I was now. That he was trying to shape me into his dream girl.

And *that* was a dealbreaker for me.... while I agree with the changes gentleman wants me to make, gentleman doesn't deserve an improved successful me if he doesn't love the CURRENT me.

I want him to appreciate that I'm fun, caring, thoughtful, carefree, adventurous, present, willing to compromise, etc. He seems to not enjoy any of those qualities in me anymore.

Anonymous said...

(Vivian - Part 2)

So, after I finished talking to my guy friend, I texted gentleman saying:

- I didn't think he liked me for who I was, only who I could potentially be
- that my dream guy would love ALL of me even the lazy parts, and who I become (e.g. driven, goal-oriented, go getter) would be a bonus, not something that would be a dealbreaker if I wasn't
- I will be successful in what I do, and who knows maybe we will see the results of each other's success if our paths cross one day.
- Take care

Maybe gentleman does need space away from me, so now I've given him that with a final breakup.

I'm just not sure what got into him.... everything he liked about me in the beginning doesn't seem to be attractive to him anymore (he liked my energy and my smile and how inspiring/motivating I was). Perhaps it's all the stress from working full-time and going to school.

I've always slept late/woke up late, always had a pretty carefree life. I work for my father part-time so my schedule is flexible, and he knows this.

It's like he's just finding fault in everything about me and wants me to keep changing like a damn project of his. Yet he says when I do show I'm working hard for my goals like he is, he won't be distant anymore. Okay, I don't believe it.

First it was the 3 conditions... and when I started changing those.. now it's my laziness he wants to change. Exhausting.

Mirror, I know you can't predict the future, but do you think it's likely he will EVER realize how good I was? Perhaps even feel a bit of sadness that I left him? Or just keep telling himself that I treated him poorly?

I got him to quit drinking, I changed his lifestyle habits so now he's taking probiotics , drinking kefir milk, drinking lemon water, and drinking apple cider vinegar, he eats slower like me and savors his food, I motivated him to work out harder. And of course I give great hugs and kisses.

I've changed him in MANY positive ways. How can he say I contributed NOTHING. I don't get it at all. I have so much anger to work through.

- Vivian

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Vivian,
Time to take a break from this dear. This is fast turning into "conditional" love and I think some space for perspective could do both parties some good here. (And by conditional love I mean there are now also suddenly "conditions" that need to exist in order to receive that love - "I will love you if. . .")

It's one thing to want a condition of alcoholism or drug abuse or something along those lines to cease, but it's an entirely different story when one of those conditions has to be $30k a month earnings. I'm going to give this guy the benefit of doubt and assume he's referring to "ambition" there more than money itself. And if that's the case, sometimes you reach a point where you just simply realize each others styles are different. . .and maybe it's simply not a match as a result :-(

He said it himself, "He said he was telling me this now, because he didn't want it to be a year later and then he would break up with me because I wasn't what he wanted."

And it also appears he led this on a bit when maybe he shouldn't have. "He was very unhappy that I wasn't as hardworking as he was, that I slept late/got up late, that I have fun all the time, that I don't work on my business and instead I chat with my friends or I help them out. He felt like I was lazy and that I wasn't sharing my passion for achieving my work goals every single day. . . it rubbed him the wrong way."

He was feeling ALL OF THAT - and never said a word until now.

This is why it's good to give space to men. They're actually able to get in touch with their emotions once they've had that space.

"do you think it's likely he will EVER realize how good I was? Perhaps even feel a bit of sadness that I left him?"

It's possible. Anything is possible - and only time will tell.

"I have so much anger to work through."

Don't dwell in those emotions. If you do, they'll overcome you. Look at it like this. . .the dating phase is the "get to know you" phase. That's it's entire purpose.

And yes, sometimes during that phase we get to know individuals better and we realize they're not a match. Lifestyle goals don't match, personal goals don't match, belief systems don't match, wants and needs do not align or mesh - it happens.

But when it DOES happen - it's nothing to be angry about. Rather, it's actually something to be thankful for. Because he said it himself, this could've all come out a year from now and been much more painful to realize then, than it is now.

And THAT is why experiencing the dating phase slowly, and observing during it, and then taking time to process what's taking place and all that you're learning is a wise thing to do. If you don't do that and you rush in, the pain you experience much later down the road upon these realizations is five times more intense and hurtful.

So even though it appears as if this may not have been a match after all, the reality here is that the dating phase and all the work you've done on "self" is paying off. It's helped you both get to know one another better and make decisions accordingly for yourselves.

And while it may not seem like a "win" - in truth, it is. . .because it worked.

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

It helped you both get to know one another better. And even though the situation itself may not work out, I feel you'll come out of it stronger, wiser, and having "grown" from it internally, which is a positive thing and a "gift" of sorts.

So don't dwell in those feelings of anger. Process them and let them go. Stay focused on the positive here instead and look at the big picture. Let those tiny details slip into the background after you've worked your way through those feelings and try to stay focused on the :big picture" positive experience here.

Take some time for yourself. Do not contact this man again at this point. If you do that now, and you go back on your word, you're going to appear to be emotionally unstable to him, as if you, yourself, do not know exactly what it is that you want. So stay focused on yourself right now, and the work you're doing there, and look towards the future.

This man may or may not be in your future - but either way, the future is still coming. So prepare for it for YOURSELF, and don't worry about the man that may or may not end up in it right now.

Anonymous said...

Hi Mirror,
I've met a guy I really like. We've had 4 great dates. I'm a big fan of yours and following all your advice I haven't slept with him yet, nor do I ever text first, I let him initiate all the dates. We have our 5th date lined up tomorrow. We haven't had any conversations about our intentions, is it too soon for me to ask and if so how do I bring it up? I don't want to ask him if he wants a relationship after only 4 dates and scare him off. We met on a dating app and he has told me he told me this weekend (via text) he isn't speaking to anyone else. The thing is, I was hurt last year and I've got my guard up so neither of us talk about our feelings, we're just very sarcastic with each-other. I get very anxious when he doesn't reply for a day and I can't tell if that's my paranoia of getting hurt again or if I should demand more from him. Basically mirror I don't want to f*#k this up so what advice do you have for me to make sure this follows the right dating principles for success? We had our first date on the 22nd January, so we've known each-other 30 days today. ;) Seen that in one of the posts...help me!
Confused singleton!

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Confused Singleton,
"We haven't had any conversations about our intentions, is it too soon for me to ask and if so how do I bring it up?"

It is too soon - and this is not a question you should really ask anyway, ever. Let me explain.

When you do that, when you go to a man and you ask HIM where things are going. . .you are basically giving away all of your power over to him - for HIM to decide. It's the equivalent of saying, "I have no say-so in this, so I'm deferring to you on it. I'm giving you the power to decide where this goes. And I'm waiting on YOU."

It immediately places the woman into the "lesser" position in the relationship by signaling to the man that you're "waiting" on him to decide. It signals to the man that you're not making any other moves, you're not dating any other men, and you're placing ALL of your eggs into his basket.

When casually dating, you're SINGLE - until a MAN has asked YOU for a commitment.

So what that means is. . .it's not necessary to determine where things are going - because you're not waiting around for that anyway.

You should be dating other men, expanding your social circle, getting to know people, you laying out a variety of options for yourself because and YOU HAVE A CHOICE - you are the one in control of your happiness. So you keep moving forward no matter what, and you're not going to wait or change your strategy for yourself until one of the men that you're dating comes to you and asks YOU for a commitment.

And until that happens, you're single. And where your casual dating excursions are heading doesn't matter, until things get serious.

And you'll know when things get serious. Because you're observing the actions of these men and those actions tell you all you need to know. Men who are genuinely interested exhibit consistent behavior. They call regularly, ask you out regularly, express a desire to see you, stay in contact regularly, make time for you, etc.

If a man is exhibiting those actions when dating - then you KNOW it's going somewhere. It's not necessary to ask.

And if a man isn't exhibiting those actions when dating - then you know it's not very serious. It's not necessary to ask.

"I've got my guard up so neither of us talk about our feelings, we're just very sarcastic with each-other."

That's fine - it's only been 4 dates ;-)

Don't place undue pressure on yourself to try and control the relationship or steer it towards a committed one. Because the reality is -- YOU don't KNOW this man all that WELL right now anyway.

So how do you even know if you want a relationship with this man after only 4 dates?

You don't. You don't know that yet. You don't know him well enough yet. Therefore, trying to decide where this is going is pointless at this time, because you, yourself, have not even learned all there is to know about this man yet.

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

So remove that pressure from yourself and from the situation for right now. Because it takes months to truly get to know an individual.

"I get very anxious when he doesn't reply for a day and I can't tell if that's my paranoia of getting hurt again or if I should demand more from him."

After 4 dates, you can't demand anything from him. . .because he has not made any COMMITMENTS to you to provide anything to you at this point. So you can't project your fears and insecurities onto another that has even agreed to any commitments yet, ya' know? You can't expect relationship type communication (committed, daily, regularly) when only casually dating (non-committed, sporadic, irregular).

So when dating, keep everything in perspective and don't project any expectations onto another that that they, themselves, have not agreed to provide.

And if you're feeling anxious - that's not anything that a man can relieve for you.

That is fear and insecurity surfacing within you, and you are the only one that can relieve that for yourself by working on methods to practice self-discipline and manage that anxiety in a healthy manner. If you become anxious and then "project" expectations onto others that they've not agreed to provide, dating you will no longer seem fun and carefree to them. Instead, they will begin to feel pressured and view the situation as "work" and not much fun.

And one way to not expect too much from any one man. . .is to casually (no sex) date several of them.

It's perfectly fine to go to dinner with one, then movies with another, then drinks with another in an effort to get to know each of them better. So that you have control over your own happiness, explore a lot of options, and see which one sparks chemistry and looks like it has a good chance of surviving long term. It's never wise to just start dating a guy, cease dating all other men, and then wait and hope that that one man turns into a real relationship.

Men watch for that - and they don't like it when they see it.

Let me explain. How would you feel if you dated a man that, every woman he dated, he wanted a relationship with? He wasn't choosing for himself a "special" woman. . .because any ole' woman will do. Any warm body will fill the void.

Would you feel special? Would you feel like the man really chose you because you were special?

Probably not. Instead, you'd begin to question the man. You'd begin to ask yourself, "Why is he so insistent on a relationship with me when he really doesn't even know me? Why the rush? Is it because he really likes me, or is it simply because he's insecure and afraid to be alone and any ole' woman will do?"

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

If men think you're a woman that "any ole' man would do" for - they will not feel special, and they will not feel a special connection to you. Instead, they'll look at it like, "She's just needs a man - period." And men read that type of "need" as unhealthy, and emotionally unbalanced. Men like a woman that is confident, knows what she wants, and marches to the beat of her own drum. They consider women like that a "challenge" and they get excited at the thought of landing a choosy woman. They like competition (hence their love of sports) and they like to "win" things.

And when they encounter a woman who is simply seeking a warm body, any ole' warm body, to fill the void - they tend to steer clear of her.

So spend more time getting to know this man. And in the meantime, casually (no sex) date other men as well. Keep moving forward, keep living your life, don't worry about where things are going (you don't know each other well enough to even know if you want to be with this man anyway), and stay in motion.

Because the man that wants you, will come find you. HE will seek YOU out, and he will follow through with consistent, reliable actions and behaviors. And HE will ask YOU for a commitment.

But until that happens, you're single and free to mingle - and that's exactly what you should do ;-)

Fire & Water said...

@Vivian,
I'm so sorry to hear how this all played out, especially the beginning of it - on Valentine's day. It's lousy when you expect something wonderful and get a kick in the teeth instead. The contrast makes it worse.
That being said, I wanted to go back to a few things. First, as Mirror said earlier, remember how much you've grown from this experience. You're making connections and gaining understanding from this situation and that's a massive silver lining! Those little "aha" moments and revelations are so valuable to getting ourselves where we want to be.
Second, as everyone else has said, go ahead and give this guy space. Not only does he need it, you need it. Get back to feeling your life without him and your comfort with that. Maybe go hit a punching bag at the gym for a couple days if you're still angry ;) and then, take this opportunity you now have to do some work on yourself.

You had said "Right, that is my insecurity speaking... we talked earlier about how I felt that he didn't accept how quirky/weird I was because he's so "normal" compared to me. He said that it was all in my head. But the things he says/does makes me feel that he doesn't fully accept me -"

So, starting from there, pop him out of that comment, like you're taking a nose off a Mr. Potato Head :) ...how do YOU feel about being "quirky/weird"? Is that something you love about yourself? Something you're afraid people won't like about you? Something you know is true about you but you kind of laugh at (for example, I like CDs and DVD with the name straight when they are in their jewel cases. If they're not, it won't bother me on a good day, but on a bad one it might make the list of things that aggravate me :) ...right before I burst out laughing because down deep, I know it's not crucial that they be straight, it's just this stupid thing that I prefer and can laugh at myself about...as I straighten the CD :D). So, what do you think about that quirky/weird side of yourself?
Sending you bright light and love...and throwing a couple of air punches in solidarity ;)
F & W

Anonymous said...

Hopeful,

Yes, when I look at it from his perspective, it does seem very frustrating to be in a relationship with me. :-(

I think that due to gentleman's impatience and desire for reciprocation early on, it didn't give me time to really figure out my feelings for him. In some ways, I'm like a man and need time/space apart to know how I feel.

If gentleman gave me TIME, I would have started to fall for him by now, and possibly love him around the 6 month mark.

First 3 months in dating is always just fun times for me.

I've now broken up with the gentleman.... I don't really know if he would be up for reconciliation in the future if I did miss him. I've already broken up with him 3 times, I'm sure he thinks I'm unstable, LOL.

Hopeful since you are also a Sag with Aries moon, would you be open to reconciliation if someone had broken up with you - or would you simply move on and forget them even if they said they missed you?

Everything I've read about Aries moon says the person would just move on when things are final.

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

Gem50,

Unfortunately, I couldn't just lay back and wait for gentleman to come to me.

It was driving me nuts being in a relationship with him, while he wasn't really doing anything to show he cared about me. It was just all my initiative.

And I felt that if I *didn't* initiate, we simply wouldn't see each other (interestingly, this was what he said about ME earlier!).

We were going down a path that I could no longer follow without giving up my self-respect. Then the nail in the coffin was him making me feel that he liked me for who I *could* be rather than who I am now.

I'm pretty close to my brother as well, and did vent to him all the things gentleman did that I didn't like. Probably a bad idea. I will consider not sharing so much about my love life with my brother in the future. Thanks for pointing that out! :-)

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

Mirror,

I think the hardest part is that I had already started to build my dreams into his. In a couple of years, he will start his real-estate firm - and I've thought about how what I know will help him.

Gentleman wants to build a beach mansion, and I want to have a glass room placed in our backyard beach where we could sleep and wake up to the sunrise and waves.

All of the sudden - I gotta go at it alone. It's more fun to build these dreams with a partner. With gentleman, I know he can achieve every dream he has, which makes it feel even more of a reality.

But yes, it did feel like it was turning into conditional love, which is why I knew it was the right time to break it off.

I don't really blame him; I do feel he has been punishing me ever since I told him I didn't think we weren't right for each other and I wanted better for myself.

I think in saying that, what I was *hoping* was he would realize what I wanted and be able to be that kind of person (someone more patient and understanding).

It's not that I can't be all that he wants - e.g. driven, goal-oriented, productive, ambitious - because those are traits I want in myself.

It's just that - he went about it in the wrong way that made me feel unloved for who I am.

Then again, gentleman did mention many times he HATED that he couldn't reach me when I didn't have wifi. I just didn't really listen, so it just got to a point where he was so frustrated he just blew up in a mean way.

A more tolerant guy would just let it go, but gentleman is the type to go after what he wants.

I don't feel angry at gentleman anymore, I've processed those feelings in the past day and let them go. It has now turned into missing him terribly - and realizing that I didn't fully appreciate all the things he did for me.

Not going to lie, but it's been a real struggle to not contact him. I struggle every hour. It doesn't really help that I know I can get gentleman back pretty easily (just not his whole heart).

The romantic optimist in me still hopes to reconcile with gentleman down the road, when I've done the inner work on myself to be a more strong and confident person, and when he goes back to the happy, positive, sweet guy I liked in the beginning.

I've already started to make positive changes - e.g. sleep earlier, LOL. So while he was unnecessarily harsh, gentleman makes me a better person.

I have a dinner date on Saturday, but I haven't really decided whether I should go or not.

I shouldn't jump back into dating, but maybe it will help me move on faster? Or no? The man knows that I've broken up recently; we had spoken before I met the gentleman but didn't meet because I became exclusive with the gentleman shortly after. No harm, right?

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

Fire&Water,

Thanks for all your positivity and love; you've really boosted my spirits with your supportive words!

Curious to know what's your Sun and Moon sign? I get a vibe you're a fire sign (based on your energy and your username on here, LOL).

I do need space, yet feel like filling in that emptiness/void by reaching out to him.

I'm still busy with friends and family and weightlifting, but it doesn't really fill in the *void* ... that void can only be filled by achieving business goals. I'm fairly ambitious with big dreams, just that I'm so lazy most of the time (which I will change).

I love that I'm quirky/weird because I feel that's what makes me UNIQUE. Some guys are actually more attracted to me because of the things I'm interested in (e.g. lucid dreaming, law of attraction, meditation, people watching, crazy beauty experiments).

But gentleman is not spiritual at all; he lives in the outer world - what can be seen and felt. It's a good thing in a way because he introduced me to a lot of new things - like water parks, sports clubs, table service at clubs, sunset watching on a hill, etc.

He's just like a normal, professional guy with ambitious goals. I don't even think there's anything weird about him, which makes ME feel uncomfortable being my weird self! We used to have a lot of fun in the first 2 months, that's what makes me nostalgic.

Haha thanks for sharing your CD/DVD quirk, it made me smile. You're so adorable! I used to work at the library, because I just LOVE putting things into alphabetical order. When I'm in a bookstore, I sometimes rearrange books if they're not in order. LOL.

That's one of my things. :-) I think what's missing between me and gentleman is just sharing quirks and laughter. He's just really serious and focused most of the time now... which I admire, but it's not really energy I like ALL the time.

He really needs to relax, and I help him relax... but lately he doesn't like that I'm so relaxed. Men! Still miss him though...

*air punch back*

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

Mirror, ladies...

I feel it's *truly* over now. Well it was over as soon as I broke up with him, but there was still a slight hope of reconciliation down the line after we've improved ourselves...

I mustered up the courage to read gentleman's response to my break up text (that my dream guy would love all of me even the lazy parts etc)... and he actually DIDN'T reply.

Didn't blow up at me (as I expected), didn't even bother to say "ok take care." Nothing.

Was this the expected response (no response)?

I think in a year I will look back and find this comment really pathetic and hilarious (maybe I'm dating someone 100x better?)... but right now, it just hurts.

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

@Vivian
Whether I would be open to reconciliation... It´s difficult to answer your question because, of course, it would depend on circumstances. But to put it simply - yes I would provided I still cared for the person and if I felt the person genuinely cared for me. (In the past I often overlooked the latter condition though:-(.Still learning). I don´t want to lift your hopes but I believe there is always hope unless the relationship is abusive or unhealthy in some ways. As Mirror and the other ladies wrote above - give it space and you will see what will happen, how you yourself will feel about it after some time passes. I think your gentleman will circle back at some point although not necessarily tomorrow or next week. The question is - will y o u want him then? I can´t help it but my gut keeps telling me that somehow this gentleman can´t cope with you as a man with a woman...
Hopeful



Gem50 said...

@ Vivian,

Sometimes we feel so antsy about a situation we feel like we are crawling out of our skin and we have to DO something to relieve our stress --- DO something to impact the person we feel is to blame for our distress. We want them to either change their behavior to make us feel better, or we want to hold them responsible for their selfish and uncaring behavior that has hurt us. A lot of us have been there, and we understand.

Through age and reading and practice and experience I have learned the best thing to do in these situations is what Ms. Mirror has said. NOTHING. That is, NOTHING in regards to the other person.

Do SOMETHING in regards to you. Take a walk. Bake a cake. Take out the trash. Go shopping. Go to the bathroom. Go to a coffee shop. Mow the lawn. Pot some flowers. “Just Say NO,” isn’t just a marketing slogan to prevent kids from taking drugs. Say “NO!” to allowing this to take up so much time and space in your brain. Do anything that makes your brain think of anything else.

I don’t suggest meeting with friends to talk about Gengtleman, but I do suggest coming here to read and write and/or seeing a good therapist if we need professional help. (I've done it several times in my life.)

If you meet with friends for coffee or a walk or dinner, don’t bring him up. If they ask about him or the situation, you can tell them that you are taking a break from the whole thing for now and would like to talk about something else.

Doing this will help you detach from the distress at first for minutes then hours. It will also help you center yourself. You’ve done a lot of good work through this experience, but you are not done dear (sorry). We (you, me, all of us) are never done in this life (that’s a good thing) until we are dead (when (some believe) we have the chance to try it all over again). :-)

You’ve been a member of this group for a long time dear, giving great input, support and kindness to many. Have faith in what you’ve read here from others over the years. Gentleman will most likely be back – at his own time, and for his own reasons -- and this is not a concern you need to think about right now. Now is time for you to center yourself dear. Be proud of yourself while humble for being totally engaged in this experience. Take time out and breath. (hugs)


Gem50 said...

@ Ms. Mirror,
I had a thought/question.
I have gotten myself "stuck" in relationships by saying, "I love you" too soon. It wasn't malicious intent, it was me being young and uneducated.

When I said, "I love you," to a man, I believed it at the time. I believed the feelings I had were love for him, but really they weren't. I didn't really know who these men were when I said it, and they really didn't know me when they said it to me so early either.

So, I was thinking tonight while driving: What about, "I love the way I feel when you do _____" after he's done something nice and I am feeling loving towards him. or, "I love being with you." or, "I love how this is going." etc., when the man initiates an "I love you," first.

Instead of us saying, I love YOU," we say we love the good feelings or experiences, etc we are having -- and only if he says it first and of, course we actually feel this way?

Am I nuts (could be) and thinking too much about this? LOL

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Gem50,
"Am I nuts (could be) and thinking too much about this? LOL"

Not at all. It's a very real thing. And quite frankly, I feel it should be discussed a lot more than it is these days because "instant gratification" seems to be the name of the game. Too many people confuse developing affections for real love.

And I agree with you that acknowledging how you feel, how you love the feelings being created, is wise in the very early stages. Much wiser than skipping right over the developing affections period and moving right into love.

Because at that stage that's not really love, as you know. During the very early stages when you start realizing that this person is creating feelings of affection within you and they're creating really good energy in your life and you find yourself getting all warm and fuzzy thinking about them - generally speaking, that's "affection" developing.

The early stages of love's growth are beginning to "affect" you. Affection is "the act or process of affecting or being affected. . .a gentle feeling of fondness or liking."

However, when we are deeply insecure, afraid to be alone, fearful, suffering low self-esteem and low confidence, etc. . .affection can indeed feel much more intense and mimic deep love, because of the intensity and sense of urgency the deep "need" creates. And if you couple that with a hefty dose of lust and sexual attraction, it can certainly feel like the real thing because the intensity is now through the roof.

All of the above are the rumblings of the beginning of loves growth.

Once the couple bonds on an emotional level, spiritual level, physical level and social level for a consistent length of time -- that affection then solidifies, it's roots grow much deeper, and it finally blossoms into love.

When you meet someone that you CAN bond with successfully on ALL FOUR levels -- you'll feel you've finally found your "soul" mate.

But consistent sustainment of those 4 levels are key to long term success:

Emotional (inner world)
Spiritual (belief system)
Physical (sexual)
Social (lifestyle)

That's the "full" package. . ."full"filling love that feeds your soul (instead of stealing from it ;-)

Gem50 said...

"Once the couple bonds on an emotional level, spiritual level, physical level and social level for a consistent length of time -- that affection then solidifies, it's roots grow much deeper, and it finally blossoms into love."

Beautiful.

Anonymous said...

Hopeful,

I suppose you have had experience with an ex-bf wanting to reconcile who did not genuinely care? What's the story behind that if you don't mind me asking? :-0

I've been feeling something quite strange the past few days: it's this feeling that I don't want to get back with the gentleman right now (I don't even want to talk to him) -- but we will likely in the future when we're different people (perhaps this year?).

I can't really tell if this is just my romantic optimism, or that we have some unbreakable bond. I feel that he's mine.

What do you mean by "somehow this gentleman can't cope with you as a man with a woman"? He can't cope with me...?

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

Gem50,

"We want them to either change their behavior to make us feel better, or we want to hold them responsible for their selfish and uncaring behavior that has hurt us"

Yes yes yes - this!

I want him to *realize* what he has done, what part he played in the break up. If he accepted me for me, if he didn't keep putting his conditions up as a wall, I wouldn't have broken up with him.

The urge to DO something was strong, but I've mellowed out a bit the past 2 days (we've now been broken up for 1 week).

I have been moving forward with my goals, my future direction, the life I want to create, and imagining the next person.

I've been back on the dating site (a different one than the one I met gentleman on).

A very nice man messaged me who I've spoken with 1-2 years ago on another dating site. He still remembers me! He wrote that he hoped that 2016 would be the year both of us permanently get off the site.

Don't think he is "the one" but I feel it's worth exploring. He has what gentleman is lacking: a carefree attitude and patience.

Thanks for all your wise words, gem. I'm so grateful to receive support from you; you make this journey of mine a lot easier to get through and less lonely.

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

@Vivian
Yes, it has happened to me that I wanted to reconcile because I thought he was genuinely interested but in reality he only wanted to enjoy some benefits of "dating" me. I would write more but the story isn´t worth reading in my opinion.

I think gentleman can´t cope with you as a man because I guess he has never dated a girl like you so knows little about this "type" of woman. Perhaps his mom or sister were completely different so he isn´t used to women like you. As a result he is in an unfamiliar territory which makes dating you exciting but very unpredictable. He probably has different expectations. But I don´t think that all of this is negative, on the contrary, dating a woman like you may be exciting to him and in the long run very interesting and inspiring. (All of this is just my intuition).
Hopeful

Anonymous said...

Dear @Mirror and ladies,
Thank you so very much for sharing your heart felt experiences and wisdom.

10 months ago, I returned to dating world at age of 53. It opened my eyes as well as intimidated by some men's behaviours.

But it taught me a lot.

I am learning to follow up Ms.Mirrors suggestions, e.g. not chasing, not initiating contact, being confident, holding my values, look after self, and learn to select / spot a good man.

Recently, I was contacted by a new man, he is below my league (I am concerned that we are not compatible). But he seems showing interests, calls every second day to say hello, and asks to meet. I decided to give him a chance.

So I went along to the first date in a local restaurant. He brought a bottle of good wine with him. Food was nice and conversation as light yet relative interesting. I drank half glass, he did 2.

When the bill arrived, I noticed that he was hesitated. So I asked 'Would you like me to look after bill with you?'. To my surprise, he said 'Yes, half would be good'. I put down $20. It was only $36 in total.

I was quite uncomfortable that he accepted my offer (not about the money though). Does it mean his word not aligned with his action?

He then insisted walk me to my car. Before said good bye, he expressed that he was interested and liked to see me again.

That was 3 days ago.

Yesterday, he called again and asked for second restaurant date. I accepted. But in my mind, I told myself, if he spit the bill with me again, I will stop seeing him.

Am I on the right track? What would you do differently?

There are few things that I have concerns to this guy:
- Intellectually, we may not compatible - he received much less education than I did.
- He may drink a lot. (I broke up with my ex due to his drinking problem).
- He is only talking on the lips, not in action by be a good provider, protector.

I would appreciate your input and suggestions ladies, please give me any of your thoughts.

Many thanks,
@A53




The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@A53,
"he said 'Yes, half would be good'. I put down $20. It was only $36 in total. . .I was quite uncomfortable that he accepted my offer. . .he called again and asked for second restaurant date. I accepted. . .told myself, if he spit the bill with me again, I will stop seeing him. Am I on the right track?"

It appears there's a good chance, for whatever reason, that this man is unable to be a good provider. He's either unwilling, or financially unable to. And I understand what a turnoff it is to have to split the bill for a first date like you're out with your buddy -- instead of a man with romantic interest in you.

If he did this the first time, he's going to do it the second time as well. And before you know it, you're going to feel like you're hanging out with a buddy, and you may find that you're unable to view this man as a romantic interest as a result.

Ultimately, there's a good chance you may end up having no romantic attraction to him whatsoever. . .because he's not doing anything romantic for you to stir any of those feelings.

The choice is yours. You can attempt one more date if you like, but I wouldn't expect much if you do. Chances are he'll ask to split the bill again. Which is why I generally suggest that when a man treats you like his buddy on the first date and asks you to split the bill. . .a second date really isn't necessary, because as you can see, this really damages and hinders any romantic attraction from growing or developing for the woman. And if you do decide to explore this one more time and he does that again, I wouldn't even consider a 3rd date :-(

Anonymous said...

(@A53)

Thank you @Mirror for your suggestion. Totally agree with your view.

"Which is why I generally suggest that when a man treats you like his buddy on the first date and asks you to split the bill. . .a second date really isn't necessary..."

- I didn't know that. In the future, I need to say 'NO' earlier to these type of man.

Since I accepted 2nd date, as planed, I will explore this one more time, if he asks to split the bill again which is more likely, there wouldn't be 3rd date. I will tell him 'I don't we are right for each other'.

I am learning...

Thank you for lighting up my mind.
@A53


Anonymous said...

Hopeful,

No worries, you are free to share whatever you feel like. I pray that in the future you can tell who genuinely cares for you. I'll punch them for you if they don't (I may have violent tendencies, haha).

I think your intuition is spot on! You brought up something gentleman mentioned to me on New Year's Eve: he felt it was a good thing that we were so different because in the long run (assuming we had learned to communicate), it would keep things more interesting.

Whereas it might be easier to date someone who was similar to him in the way they think in the beginning, he felt it got boring later on.

He doesn't have a sister, but I know that I'm very different from his mom. His mom is perpetually unhappy, needy, demanding, emotionally unstable, angry, forgives/changes her mood quickly.

He's a bit like his mom in that he is needy/demanding/gets angry often.

Oh well, time apart from him has done me good. :-) He really needs to learn to chill out; it's the journey that matters. Why rush, and not enjoy the process?

I will achieve all the goals on my list, but I'm not doing it in a way that makes me feel stressed/unhappy.

I think he's upset that I don't do things his way, that's all. And while it looks like I'm agreeing on the surface, I actually still do things my way because I'm stubborn, LOL. I'm either exciting or frustrating to guys like that.

Have a nice weekend, Hopeful!

- Vivian

Fire & Water said...

@Vivian,
I'm so glad to know the good energy I'm sending helps :) Awesome stuff isn't it? :)
You vibe right - I'm a Dec Sagi, with my moon in Scorpio..hence fire & water :)

"I love that I'm quirky/weird because I feel that's what makes me UNIQUE. "

Yes!! I LOVE this!!! Spot on, girl! Keep this feeling...and extend it to everything about you.

"which makes ME feel uncomfortable being my weird self!"

I get that...I think what you're feeling there is kind of a mismatch between you and him. If people allow you to draw them a bit into your world - if they're open to that - the quirky vs not quirky thing can work...just like what you feel when you think about him encouraging you in a positive way to chase your dreams harder. That's positive aspect of the differences. But when the other person isn't open to that, and/or when they don't express those differences as encouragements/rooting for you's, but rather as demands, that's when things can break down. You felt that switch and it changed things for you, and rightly so.

"When I'm in a bookstore, I sometimes rearrange books if they're not in order. LOL. "

LOfreakinL...that sounds like a habit I could probably catch. Too cute!

"He's just really serious and focused most of the time now... which I admire, but it's not really energy I like ALL the time."

I totally hear you...it can get very draining feeling like you're always the one who is the 'life of the party' and the lighthearted one. I think 'balance' is probably the Great Key to the Universe.

I'm so so glad to hear you're processing the whole situation and feeling happier!
F & W

Fire & Water said...

@Gem50
"Instead of us saying, I love YOU," we say we love the good feelings or experiences, etc we are having -- and only if he says it first and of, course we actually feel this way? "

This is SUCH a great point! I'm so glad you mentioned both your concern and your solution, because there's such a truth to it. You get to a point where you want to tell someone that they're creating really positive feelings in you, but it's way too early to say "I love you"..so what falls into that space between "like" and "love"? Your suggestion works wonderfully.

It's so easy to throw words around and it happens so much these days. I see girls a generation younger than me and they say "I love you" at the drop of a hat...like to people they've just met and spent a weekend with for the first time. And I'm like "really? You *love* that person?"

It seems much more truthful and accurate to me to do what you've suggested, Gem. And it keeps 'I love you' for something more sacred, when it's had time to blossom.

(and PS Mirror - your explanation below Gem's comment is absolute GOLD.)
F & W


Anonymous said...

Hello Mirror,

(I'll call myself Newbie)
(Part 1)
I never thought I'd be doing this but I feel I really need to get your advice. I'm new to dating so I'm not sure whether I'm expecting too much or I don't understand the process of dating or whether this guy is even trying to date me. During the few encounters I've had with him he has winked at me a lot so I figure he may be flirting with me. He hasn't said anything that gives me the idea of him actually wanting more than a friendship, so I'm not sure at this point what he wants.

Anyway, I met this guy a couple weeks before valentine's day. He came into the store I worked at and bought a bunch of cookies to share with his coworkers. The first time he came in, I didn't recognize who he was at the time but he asked me if I had went to a certain college. I told him yes and he asked me what I majored in. When I told him, he commented that it sounded boring. At the time I really didn't care what he had to say, so I kind of just laughed it off, and finished ringing him up so that I could get to the next person in my line. I don't remember anything else that first day, but that comment of his stood out to me as him being a bit rude.

In the second encounter with him, I found out that he was a friend of some old friends of mine who I haven't kept in touch with for a while since graduating college. I remembered meeting him at the friend's birthday party and him helping us to move out into another apartment. During our conversation he found out that I still lived in the area, but with my parents (unfortunately I haven't found a job that'll allow me to move out, and on top of that I am using what little money I make to help my parents pay bills since my mom is losing hours at her job.) He asked me if I had a facebook, I told him I did but that i didn't really use it that much anymore. He then said that perhaps he could be the reason I start using facebook again, to talk to him. I told him maybe I would start using facebook again. At the time I wasn't really feeling the idea though because I really didn't want to start using my facebook again. Social media annoys me a bit and I like to keep my life as private as possible. He left it on me to look him up on facebook, and not the other way around. I did look for him through a friend's profile but I never added him as a friend; I just wanted to see if I could really find him.

In our third enounter, he asked me if I had any plans during the valentine's day weekend and that if I didn't we could go see the Deadpool movie. I told him I did, that I was planning to hang out with my brother and my nieces. I had a feeling that maybe he was asking me out on a date. But i didn't want to read too much into it. I never asked him if we would be hanging out as friends or him taking me as a date. He told me if I had a change of plans, to let him know (through facebook I assume because at this point we still didn't have each others cell numbers.) Anyway, my plans fell apart but I wasn't going to contact him to see the movie with him instead.

(continued...)

Anonymous said...

(Part 2)(Newbie)
So a few weeks go by and he comes into the store while I'm on my way out to leave work. As he's passing me, he tells me to have a good evening and touches my shoulder. After that I was leaning more toward the idea that perhaps he was seeing me as a romantic interest.

And then after some more time passes, I think over a week, he finally comes into the store again, this past thursday. I'm thinking that he was in my line to buy cookies again, but he just chats with me a bit. He asks how I'm doing, I tell him I'm good, I ask him how he is, he answers he's good. He then asks me what I've been up to and I tell him just working. He then asks "Just work?" and I reply yes. He then gets into talking about him working too but that he's also been working on his car, a hobby of his. I tell him that sounds interesting and he goes into telling me that this weekend he was going to be installing turbo parts into it, saying that he wants his car to be able to go up hills faster. I didn't take too much interest into asking him anything else, but he ends up asking me what I'm doing for the rest of the week and I tell him I work friday and have my saturday off with no particular plans but that I may end up doing something for my birthday (which is on monday). He tells me its a bit last minute but perhaps we could do something this weekend and I say maybe. I'm thinking now perhaps I just should of said it was too late.

Anyway he gives me his number and leaves it up to me to text him after I get off work which was after 8:30pm. I did end up texting him that thursday evening around 9:30pm "Hey __, its ___ :)". I didn't get a reply at all until Saturday morning, 12:15AM. I hadn't gone to bed yet so I saw his message. He texted "Hi. Sweet (grinning emoji) we're going out today let me know when you're up!" I'm like, omg he's assuming I'm ok with going out with him to do who knows what! I didn't want to text him that moment to ask him anything but later that day after 12pm I did text him. I texted him "Hey, what's up? You wanted to go out today??" About 15mins later he replies "Yes, but I'm still installing my turbo air system. I'll come get you though when it's done (smirk emoji) good morning sleepyhead." I wasn't really cool with the idea of going out with him so last minute so I texted him back "Well good morning how about we reschedule for tomorrow? It's a bit last minute and I don't want you to rush working on your car. What did you have in mind anyway??" About an hour and a half later he sends message with a picture of his engine with a caption that says "turbo ready/where are you?" with a text underneath giving the name of a bbq joint he planned to take me to and asking if I'm busy or ready to go. I end up texting him "I see that you're done with your car but I'd rather not today." Then he texts me "K".

I was really annoyed that he would try to take me out so last minute. But what also bothers me is that he would try to take me out without knowing much about me. Like, wouldn't he want to actually converse with me on the phone or through text to get to know me a little bit more before taking me out anywhere? As a friend or date? I mean at this point we are still very much strangers and I don't feel comfortable with a guy taking me somewhere and I barely know anything about him. (My instincts scream to me that it really isn't a smart idea.) We haven't had any long conversations. We've only had very brief chats when he had come into my workplace to buy cookies.

(continued...)

Anonymous said...

(Part 3)(Newbie)

I guess my question to you is: am I being unreasonable in wanting him to actually get to know me and me him even just a little bit before we even hang around each other? He seems like a really generous guy to his coworkers since he keeps coming in to buy cookies for them (each of our cookies cost about $1 each and he ends up getting about 12 each time!) but I feel like he may be trying to fast track me into something I don't want to be in. Or perhaps that he is testing me to see if I will go with the flow. Plus I don't want to have to tell my parents I'm leaving the house to be with someone and when they ask me who, I can only give them a name and no other information about him other than he's a friend of a friend. They are the only people I can let know about my whereabouts and it wouldn't make sense to be secretive about who I'm around when I'm not in the house. I know I'm an adult but I am living in their house; I don't want to be disrespectful and most of all I don't want to compromise my own safety. Shouldn't people actually get to know something about one another before hanging out or on a date?? I mean for all he knows I could be some psycho killer. I'm not but still LOL.

What do you think?

Sincerely, Newbie

P.S. The next day, sunday, he texted me in the afternoon "So next weekend? Or say wednsday after work? We're going to see 'Deadpool' you choose since you seem uh...busy (my name), (smirk emoji). I texted back "Well I am busy (grinning emoji) Next weekend is better." So far I haven't heard anything else from him, no solidifying a date, time or even which theatre. Just nothing. Oh and he did call before he sent that text but I wasn't around my phone at the time and therefore missed it.

Anonymous said...

Fire & Water,

That's an interesting combo - you being a Sag with a Scorpio moon. What is it like to have your moon in Scorpio?

Your positive, infectious energy actually reminds me of gentleman in the very beginning when we first met. He wasn't always such a serious hardass!

I hope he learns to relax, and realize he can be happy and lighthearted even when working hard towards his goals.

Thanks, I feel better and better!!

I've started feeling really grateful for having dated the gentleman because he's very close to what I'm looking for in a life partner (I would say 95% of what I want).

The next one will likely be the one I spend the rest of my life with - and that fills me with excitement!

There's still a lot of inner work to do in the meantime, so I'm working on fixing my insecurities and being prepared for something lasting.

The good part is... I've lost the craving for attention from a lot of men. I've been back on the dating site for close to 2 weeks, got a lot of messages and date offers, but I just don't really care like I used to.

Progress! ;-)

- Vivian

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Newbie,
"he gives me his number and leaves it up to me to text him after I get off work which was after 8:30pm. I did end up texting him that thursday evening around 9:30pm"

Never let a man set you up to pursue HIM. A man that's interested in a woman should be man enough to contact her. So the next time a man says, "Call me" - don't do it. Instead, give him YOUR number and let HIM pursue YOU. That way, you're not confused about his intentions.

Because the only way a woman can know if a man is genuinely interested - is to see if HE pursues HER.

"I didn't get a reply at all until Saturday morning, 12:15AM."

It's a game dear - don't fall for it. He's setting you up to "chase" him by acting aloof and distant. (So that you become anxious and insecure and give chase, doing all the work yourself, while he leans back and does nothing.)

It's called the random interval rewards system:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs5KpdlA_L8

"He texted "Hi. Sweet (grinning emoji) we're going out today let me know when you're up!"

He never even had the courtesy to solidify firm plans with you prior to this. When a man behaves like this and just assumes you have no life, and no other men to date, and you're sitting around waiting on him for last minute dates. . .he gets NO DATE until he shows respect for you and YOUR TIME by having the courtesy to plan something at least 3 days in advance.

"My instincts scream to me that it really isn't a smart idea."

ALWAYS listen to your gut - always. It's a built in survival system.

"am I being unreasonable in wanting him to actually get to know me and me him even just a little bit before we even hang around each other?"

Not at all.

"I feel like he may be trying to fast track me into something I don't want to be in"

I agree - it appears he's used to getting through to women by charming and sweet talking them.

"So far I haven't heard anything else from him, no solidifying a date, time or even which theatre. Just nothing."

This guy's a bit of a game player and a charmer dear. He's not taking dating seriously. His actions are carefree and casual. Which means that if you were to take him, you could not take him seriously as a romantic prospect.

A man that is serious about dating and genuinely interested in a woman will maintain regular contact with her, will respect her time, and will plan for, and solidify, dates in advance. He will telephone the woman in an attempt to get to know her, and he will make more than one or two attempts to do so. At the very least, he will converse with her in text regularly in an effort to get to know her.

This man's actions are telling you that he's not to be taken seriously. He's playing a bit of a game here, he's behaving distant and acting aloof, and he's inconsiderate of your time and not taking any of your feelings into consideration.

Probably not a man that's even worth an evening of your time dear :-( I suspect all he'd do is talk BS all night, charm you, sweet talk you, and pressure you to start engaging in sexual activities with him.

I hate to say this dear, but I'd pass on this one - there's nothing "impressive" here, ya' know? His behavior is already frustrating you, so why bother exposing yourself to more of that? Dating him on a regular basis would probably be nothing short of a major pain in the ass LOL ;-)

Anonymous said...

Hi mirror & ladies!

Just popping in here for an update, because I'm not feeling so great - and this feels like a good place to document parts of my journey. It's been 18 days since I broke up with the gentleman.

I have so many mixed feelings, it's driving me nuts.

Part of me: enjoys life without gentleman (I can stay in on the weekends and just read!), enjoys the lack of stress/pressure (I can wake up whenever I damn feel like, and complain about the weather without him saying I'm negative!). He gets all pouty if I don't want to do everything together with him.

It feels good to spend less money (on clothes, shaving, dinner, phone minutes, gifts, etc). I also don't want him back at all; at least not the person I last met who was so annoyed at every little thing I did.

Another part of me: feels really needy for him. I think about him 40% of my day. I miss his hugs, his kisses, and heck even the semi-painful sex. I think about all the thoughtful things he did for me, how much effort he put in to impress me.

I also semi-regret breaking up with him the way I did, because it felt like I wasn't honoring my commitment to him. I kind of gave up on him.

But at the same time, breaking up was also the best thing I could have done for myself. We really needed space from each other, but there's no way it could have happened because we were so attached to each other.

When he asked if I needed time to think (after we worked out our first argument and decided to stay together), and I joking said "Why not!" he didn't look too happy, LOL.

I think back and realize, gentleman really did a lot of things not just for me, but for us as a couple.

He suggested we look into taking weekly dance lessons (I like hip hop), because that way we could spend more time together and do something fun.

He created a new xmas tradition, so it could be the glue for our relationship year after year. This year it would be "J & V's Second Annual Xmas Celebration."

So I completely get why he would get so frustrated that I wasn't willing to sign up for a phone plan for him, so we could connect during the week.

I think it's his way of expressing (i.e. frustration, anger outbursts, demanding attitude) that makes me NOT want to do anything for him. I don't know anyone who responds well to being pressured like that.

Btw, mirror - I really do regret not following your advice on making an effort to talk 1-2 times a week... I was stubborn and didn't want to force myself to talk on the phone. Had I done this, things might not have escalated, sigh. Live and learn.

Anyways, heading out to meet a girlfriend I haven't seen in years. Gotta make an effort to rebuild my life, have the home of my dreams, create an amazing business that would inspire people, and meet the man whom I would spend the rest of my life with.

It would be exciting to see who comes into my life next, because if gentleman could treat me so well... it would be crazy to imagine even better treatment! :-)

Aiming for better updates next time around!

- Vivian

Fire & Water said...

@ Vivian,
"what is it like to have your moon in Scorpio" ...good question! :) ...I guess if I had to describe it in one word, I would say "intense". That's probably not helped by the fire lol. I fit the description of Scorpio moons quite closely in some respects but not others. For example, I do tend not to forget when someone slights me badly. But I don't seek out or gravitate to drama at all. Much the opposite.

"The next one will likely be the one I spend the rest of my life with - and that fills me with excitement! " ...and ""There's still a lot of inner work to do in the meantime, so I'm working on fixing my insecurities and being prepared for something lasting."

I love the way you're looking at this! It's so positive, which will surely draw positive energy toward you. I give you so much credit for using this experience in such a great way - to learn, to grow and enhance your life. It takes effort and commitment and I'm so thrilled for you to be able to do that :). There are always some bumps in the road and rougher days, but if your net effect is toward good and happy, then you're doing alright :)

"The good part is... I've lost the craving for attention from a lot of men.
...Progress! ;-)"

Isn't this THE BEST feeling? Progress indeed! Woot woot go Vivian!
Hugs!
F & W

Anonymous said...

Fire & Water,

Ah, I think people pick up on your warmth and intensity; they want to be near it, so they gravitate towards you. :-)

Think the problem is, I tend to attract very intense and passionate men. They're the type of guys I like, but I can't seem to return the intensity - even though I *feel* deeply for them and that makes them feel I don't like them enough.

While I still can't say I love the gentleman, I still miss him a lot, and still want to reconcile (though in an *improved* relationship, not the old one we were in).

Guess what happened yesterday?! At the end of January, I signed up for Kleenex's free care package where you can personalize a message on the box, and send it to someone (btw I think it's still going on, google it!).

I didn't think they'd ever send it, but I got it yesterday in the mail!

The message was:
"[Gentleman's nickname], Wishing you all kinds of gainzzzz in life! <3"

We're workout freaks so that's where the gainzzzz part comes from.

My heart did sink a little, but then I thought.... well, maybe I should still give it to him. But I can't contact him, so I did the next best thing: I contacted one of his coworkers I met earlier to see if she could drop it off on his desk, haha.

After emailing her, I was reminded mirror once wrote: "If you take the time to think things through before taking any action while in a state of heightened emotions. . .then you're able to stand confidently behind the actions you do end up taking." *smacks head*

Well...she didn't respond, so on the bright side, maybe gmail ate it!! Haha.

Thanks as always for the positive, loving support and for cheering me on! *HUGS*

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

Hi ladies & mirror!

So...I flaked on a date with a guy this past weekend who I spoke with on/off for the past year. He was really slow to move it to text/phone before, but he has improved and asked if he could call me.

We ended up having a really fun conversation for 1.5 hours last week, though it left me feeling drained because I hate talking on the phone.

We had planned to go to this art exhibit this past Saturday, but I told him I felt sick the morning of.

He ended up texting that he wanted to drop off some treats for me (I gave him my address because he offered to pick me up)... I didn't read his messages until later in the evening.

This guy lives about a 35 minute drive from me.

Apparently he waited outside my building for about 15 mins, and seeing that I didn't message back, he dropped off the treats with the concierge.

I went down to get it around 11pm. Opened up the fancy bag, and saw that he bought macarons for me (he remembered they were my favorite!).

His gesture actually made me really miss the gentleman who does that kind of stuff.

I told my best friend about it and she thought that it was very desperate of him, since we had never met.

The following day, I talked to the guy - and his responses were lightning fast. He wanted to call to check up on how I was feeling (this is not necessary!) but I turned him down saying I was tired.

He texted, "It was good to almost see you this weekend :) " and I got a feeling he wanted me to suggest meeting sometime, but I didn't feel like it.

I used to be in the camp of "just go on the date and see what happens" as good men who court and call should be given a chance, but I think it's better to just wait for the right man who you feel is good enough.

I know the kind of man I'm looking for (an improved version of the gentleman, LOL) and this guy is nowhere close to it.

I need a guy who likes lifting weights, because it's what I like doing on the weekends. I work hard for my body and I want a guy to do the same and have sexy muscles and veins popping out.

Like if I told gentleman about the new record I hit yesterday (160lbs in barbell hip thrust) he would be super happy and it would inspire him to lift double the weight (I surpassed his record of 130lbs). He can squat about 300lbs I think, which I'm nowhere close, but it motivates me to squat more.

I told the macarons guy about my fitness goals...and he thought I was doing it so guys would compliment that I looked pretty. Gentleman would understand that it was not just about the looks, but the satisfaction of hitting strength goals and beating yourself.

I guess this is just to remind myself not to settle for any nice man, because there are plenty of men who pursue and court properly. Thinking otherwise would just be scarcity thinking.

I wish for abundance in my life and all the ladies here who are still finding the One!

- Vivian

Fire & Water said...

@Vivian,
"Ah, I think people pick up on your warmth and intensity; they want to be near it, so they gravitate towards you. :-)"

Yes, I think that's probably right...but then, it seems to me that they suddenly realize that fire burns and so they pull away. Its a few, really special people that tend to see it for what it is and handle it and so stick close.

"Think the problem is, I tend to attract very intense and passionate men. They're the type of guys I like, but I can't seem to return the intensity - even though I *feel* deeply for them and that makes them feel I don't like them enough. "

I'm going to explain what I can feel in this type of situation; maybe it will provide some insight for you? Because what you said got me thinking as well...I think I have a tendency to be tough on people when they don't return the intensity to me and it's really good for me to think about the idea that maybe it's because, like you, they feel things differently. What happens is, with me, all this warmth and intensity requires a lot of energy to put out. I'm not pushing myself to be this way...it's just...I burn high octane. That's the way it is. But it's still draining to keep doing it continuously. I can make everybody laugh and lift everybody's mood, but after awhile, if no one's making me laugh or lifting my mood, it feels like all my warmth and energy is outflow and I get burned out. So, it's really important to be around people who can either lead the parade themselves sometimes, or give me a place/way to re-charge and kind of be nurturing, so that intensity has time to fire up again. Hope that's helpful/food for thought :)

"
I guess this is just to remind myself not to settle for any nice man, because there are plenty of men who pursue and court properly. Thinking otherwise would just be scarcity thinking. "

Thanks for this reminder!!! :) ...and for the good wishes! May they come back to you tenfold.
F & W

Anonymous said...

Hi mirror,

It's been 37 days since I broke up with the gentleman. I don't know why but I felt it was the right time to contact gentleman again.

I genuinely just missed him, and felt like I had a lot of love in me (I've been doing white light meditations).

While in that state, I texted him that: I have been dreaming of him and that I wake up feeling I should apologize for reacting in the moment when I should have said the things in person.

And that I know it's in the past but I still cared and I hoped things have only gotten better for him and happy easter.

Just a refresher: I texted him last month that my dream guy would love all of me, even the lazy parts. That I felt he loved me for who I could be, not who I was. That maybe one day our paths will cross and we could see the results of our success.

The text I sent on Easter Sunday was really just out of love/care for him. I want to know how he's doing. And I *do* regret not telling him how I felt in person, so he could address my concerns.

It's been a day, and he hasn't responded.

I'd rather he express how upset it made him.

Mirror, do you think that I texted too soon (i.e. I should have given it more time - like 3 months), or that he will respond but it will take days/weeks, or that he has stopped caring/moved on? He's a sagittarius.

I'm really surprised that he hasn't said anything; it kind of makes me feel like I was involved with someone who didn't give a damn. Post-breakup, the exes I did contact, almost always replied. Not necessarily warmly, but they were still responsive.

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

Fire & Water,

" it seems to me that they suddenly realize that fire burns and so they pull away"

I think this is more likely with water signs though, since fire makes water boil! Water signs are sensitive, elusive, and non-straightforward, whereas fire signs are usually the opposite.

It's really great to get your perspective on how you feel about other people not returning your intensity!

It's not just that people feel things differently, but rather their expression of their feelings.

For example, I can be extremely needy and think I am acting very needy but gentleman would always say "you say you're needy but I don't see it" (he says he feels more comfortable when I show I need him).

My question is: how do you want the people in your life to reciprocate? Does "leading the parade" mean initiate contact, or invite you to planned outings? Give you gifts?

It still baffles me how I could have shown I was passionate about the gentleman. I mean I have some idea since he told me - e.g. wanting to see him all the time, texting back really fast, wanting to do things for him, etc. But that seems like hard work. :-0

Even though I may not be all fiery but my feelings last forever. *That* is my fire.

If I care about someone, even if I break up with them - I *still* care, *still* think fondly of our past, *still* wish them well, *still* want to talk to them and know what's new in their life. They are always in my heart.

I'm still in contact with 2 exes I broke up with 8-10 years ago. I still care about them, they still care about me. We talk almost daily.

I texted gentleman (see post above) and he hasn't replied. I kind of have a feeling his fire burned out, what's your take on it?

"Thanks for this reminder!!! :) ...and for the good wishes! May they come back to you tenfold."

You're welcome girl! And thank you!! Giving you big hugs and all the warmth and intensity I can muster up as a virgo-libra, LOL. :-)

- Vivian

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Vivian,
Well, truthfully, when someone is an ex - that means you're leaving them in your past. I do not believe that exes can, or should, be friends. Only in very rare instances does that happen, and it requires both parties to be extremely emotionally mature in order to pull that off.

So if he's not responding, honestly, that's what I'd expect unfortunately :-( Particularly since you're the one who ended the relationship. Because you can't expect people to permit themselves to be pushed out, pulled in, pushed out, pulled in, ya' know? No one wants to be on a yo-yo like that, and most people will not permit it.

"I'd rather he express how upset it made him."

But he IS expressing how upset he is - in his actions (by not responding). He's simply not ready to go there again yet, and truth be told, he may never be :-(

"do you think that I texted too soon"

I probably would've waited to hear from HIM someday. That way, when or if he did reach out, I'd know he was ready to talk.

"that he has stopped caring/moved on?"

Well, again when you end a relationship, you have to expect that the individual will stop caring, and that they will move on. Think about it - if it were you and he broke up with you - wouldn't that cause you to cease caring? Wouldn't that cause you to move on, whether you wanted to or not?

As humans, we have no choice. We must keep moving forward. And we must leave the past in the past, whether it's our choice or not. Because if we do not, and we live in the past, we never get to experience our futures.

"it kind of makes me feel like I was involved with someone who didn't give a damn"

You have to understand that he's protecting himself, as you would do if the roles were reversed and a man broke up with you and you were hurt by that. You would not be so quick to let that man back into your life, ya' know?

"Post-breakup, the exes I did contact, almost always replied."

Not everyone is the same, and not everyone will react/respond the same either. As I stated previously, I do not believe it's good to revisit the past, or dwell in it, as you miss future opportunities by doing so. And most people really do not remain friends with exes and if they do, it's generally not until at least a year later that they're over the hurt and even able to possibly be friends at all.

You have to understand that this man was hurt. And that in order to protect himself, he was forced to move on. He's most likely done the hard work of grieving the loss of that relationship and then all of a sudden, after he's done all that work - you make contact again, which means he can pulled right back into that very dark place full of hurt.

He may only now be recovering dear. And he may not wish to place himself back into the position where he can be hurt again.

Think about it - how do you feel when a man has broken up with you, you cry, you grieve, you move past the anger and it's terribly painful and hard to do so. . .but you've done it. You've done all that work and you're in a better place now and then all of a sudden - BAM!

The ex shows up.

And you think to yourself, "Really? After I've just done all the hard work of getting over you, you're now back for more? No, I'm not going there again, just to be hurt all over again."

I'm sure you've been there. We've all been there. It's very difficult to get over someone and when they resurface, not everyone is willing to go through all of those emotions all over again unfortunately :-(

Fire & Water said...

@Vivian,
"My question is: how do you want the people in your life to reciprocate?Does "leading the parade" mean initiate contact, or invite you to planned outings? Give you gifts?
It still baffles me how I could have shown I was passionate about the gentleman. I mean I have some idea since he told me - e.g. wanting to see him all the time, texting back really fast, wanting to do things for him, etc. But that seems like hard work. :-0"

By "leading the parade", I mean just not leaving all the burden of life to me. I appreciate when people help me out unexpectedly, make me laugh like crazy, pick me up when I'm down. The respite of having that other shoulder to lean on, that injection of positive energy is something that carries a lot of weight with me.
When you describe him wanting you to want to see him all the time, wanting you to text him back right away, wanting you to do things for him - all together like that, it does seem like a lot of hard work. On the flip side, I think a
relationship does require putting yourself out for the other person sometimes. When Mirror talks about balance in a relationship, that's what I think of...to do it some, but not too much. I think I would pick one or two of those things to do for someone, rather than all of them. And it might be enough if you just shift the balance a bit, like rather than answer back slowly most of time,
answer back fast like 50-60% of the time. I mean, you're not an answering machine... and we all occasionally have to shower or do other activities where pouncing on our phone immediately is not feasible :)("yes, I realize I'm
about to fall over the 50 foot cliff but I just need to take this one text first, 'k? :D")Also, I think what really makes people feel loved and appreciated is a personal preference so, to me, the very most important thing you can do is...listen. When your guy is down or mad or stressed, listen to what he says. What is he complaining about? ("I have to finish house
chores, then I have to stop and make dinner"). That should give you the
idea that making dinner for him might be something he'd really appreciate after a hard day. And then its important to pay attention to how he likes whatever it is done...does he like the dinner cooked a certain way, does he only use certain cooking oils, does he prefer organic food or does he like real guy meals like chili (or both lol). If you're listening and you're paying attention and you try to do what the person indicates they prefer, it shows dramatically how much you care. Even if you get it wrong, the person (if they're being
fair) should appreciate how hard you tried. And you don't have to do it
every day, but there are certain times when it might be really appreciated - as a celebration of the completion of a project of his, or after a really tough week, that kind of thing. (cont'd)

Fire & Water said...

@Vivian (Pt 2)
"I texted gentleman (see post above) and he hasn't replied. I kind of
have a feeling his fire burned out, what's your take on it?"

I think that's true, but in a particular way. As a fire sign, I can feel burned out - that's the drained feeling I was describing. That can happen especially when I feel like I've really been trying with someone and I'm not getting back what I need to feed my fire. When I really click with someone, I don't tend to stop caring right away. It generally takes a long time, as you've described with yourself...BUT if I've been hurt enough, I stop letting myself go to that place of caring because it's too hurtful. It's like there's a wall there that I won't go past because I know what's on the other side and if I let the fire take over again, I know I'm going to end up hurt, so I just stop before I get
there. Your fire sounds like a slow, deep long burn, like embers that
never die, whereas mine I think is like a wildfire...it burns hot and
needs to keep consuming something. I think, with Gentleman, a lot depends
on how much he's been hurt. And it may take him quite awhile to really process exactly how much or little that is. You said what you needed to say. So,
now don't reach out to him again. Let that just sit with him. And see
what happens. If I were in his place, it might take me many months
or a year to get to the point where I could feel comfortable reaching out to you as a friend. And also, depending on the situation, I might never get to that point. Again, that's a really personal thing, but the best thing you can do is give him time. If you want to stay friends with him mentally for yourself, because you care about him, send him good energy and wishes instead of reaching out.
You said that you were looking forward to finding the Right Guy. Try to keep yourself in that mindset. Because, if you do that and he is the Right Guy, he'll come back into your life. And if he isn't, someone even more amazing will
arrive. So that's a win-win. I also want to say how proud I am of how you've been working with this situation. It seems like it's challenged you and I just want to say "hang in there"...because you're growing from this and that is so
beautiful and amazing. I think the situations that challenge us the most are the ones that make the most positive difference to us in the long run.
HUGS!
F & W

Anonymous said...

Hi Mirror,

Big update: I saw the gentleman again!! But now I'm a little confused.

It was not 100% surprising, because I did go to his sports club (I got a one month pass), but I was expecting him to be in group fitness class that day instead of lifting weights, so I was thinking I could just get a glimpse of him and be content.

Well, when I went into the gym - I saw him in the area that I was going to exercise in.

I didn't know what to do, so I went to another area of the gym.

Think he saw me because minutes later, he came to my area, and approached me! He asked what I was doing there, asked me what time do I usually go, do I have membership, etc. He hugged me!

We chat a bit, then he walks off.. as he walks off I panic a little because I don't want this to be the end of our conversation..so I blurt out that I beat the record I set (130lbs). He turns around and says, "Oh yeah I know, got your e-mail."

So then I go, "Aww but you didn't reply me" and I was gonna playfully poke his arm, but then he reaches out to hug me instead.

After that he asks, "Do you have text?" (Because I didn't have a proper phone plan earlier.) And I reply, "Yeah I can text." He then said, "Ok I'll text you" (He said this with a sweet smile!)

I thought he'd text me that night, but he didn't. That was Tuesday. It's now Thursday.

Mirror, do you think he was just being polite because he felt bad for not replying my email?

It kind of bugs me that he said he would text, and then didn't. He's always been a man of his word.

I will be at his gym again next Thursday to meet with one of the sales guy, so I may see him again.

I know how you feel about exes not being able to be friends, but I still miss him mirror... I want to stay in touch with him so that when I am ready for a relationship within the next 2-3 months (once I get my business/finances in order), maybe we can try again if we still have feelings for each other.

I've made a lot of positive changes in the past 2 months. I've even gotten up earlier (8:30am vs. my usual 10-11am wake up time).

You wrote:
"I probably would've waited to hear from HIM someday. That way, when or if he did reach out, I'd know he was ready to talk."

Does this still apply in this case? Do I wait for him to text - because he said he would? Or is it okay to send one next week if he doesn't?

What do I do if I see him next Thurs (if he did not text me)?

Am I supposed to still act like a happy carefree girl, or show him that I care/miss him?

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

Fire & Water,

I really get the feeling that you'd be an amazing person to be in a relationship with (I don't know the equivalent of "no homo" is for women, maybe "no lesbo"? LOL). You're so giving, positive, and thoughtful. I wish I could express even half of your fire/intensity! :-)

In sharing your preferences and what makes you feel loved/cared, I'm also getting to know you more and getting some valuable advice on how to treat my next partner. So thank you for that!

Gentleman likes his girlfriend to cook dinner when he's tired, get takeout sometimes, talk on the phone, respond quickly...which doesn't come naturally to me.

But I paid really close attention to gentleman's preferences -- I know exactly what he likes. I even know what toilet paper he uses, LOL. I'm just awful at expressing my feelings for him through action.

I wish he could see how much I cared inside, because every time I see him, I seem to just act nonchalant like he doesn't matter to me (like when I saw him 2 days ago!!! *smacks head*).

"It's like there's a wall there that I won't go past because I know what's on the other side and if I let the fire take over again, I know I'm going to end up hurt, so I just stop before I get there. "

Is there a way someone who genuinely cares can really get past that wall? Or can only time (like you said months or years) heal your relationship with the person?

"Your fire sounds like a slow, deep long burn, like embers that never die"

*nods* never dies. I just keep burning and burning....even when there's nothing external fueling it.

I've been in touch with my ex from 8 years ago since November; my fire is still burning for that guy. And he still cares about me and supports me. I just sent him like a 20 minute audio message talking about all my problems (it's difficult to schedule a time to talk on the phone since he moved to Asia, so we just send audio messages)...and he listened to the entire thing! I'm really blessed. Best ex-boyfriend ever.

"I also want to say how proud I am of how you've been working with this situation. It seems like it's challenged you and I just want to say "hang in there"...because you're growing from this and that is so beautiful and amazing."

Thank you so much <3!! I'm hanging in there. I'm still moving forward and striving for improvement in all areas of my life. I might go on a date with an ER doc next week, so that should be interesting. ;-D He seems a little boring (no fire :-() but I think he's a genuine, stable guy.

How are things in your world? Any more random invites in elevators? Haha. HUGS have a good weekend, and may someone make you laugh really hard!

- Vivian

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Vivian,
"Mirror, do you think he was just being polite because he felt bad for not replying my email?"

No, I don't. This man is a gentleman and if he had no intention of contacting you, I doubt he'd set you up to believe that was going to happen, when he knows it isn't.

"It kind of bugs me that he said he would text, and then didn't"

Umm. . .it's only been TWO days dear LOL ;-)

He didn't say, "I'll text you tonight." Or, "I'll text you later today." All he said was, "I'll text you." Sometime. He didn't set you up with the expectation that he'd text you immediately that same day - YOU set YOURSELF up with that expectation, only to find yourself disappointed when he didn't meet your secret expectation that you set yourself up to believe.

Lower the expectation - lower the disappointment ;-)

"He's always been a man of his word."

Right - and he never gave you his word that he'd text you that day ;-)

"I want to stay in touch with him so that when I am ready for a relationship within the next 2-3 months (once I get my business/finances in order), maybe we can try again if we still have feelings for each other."

That's fine - but you have to look at this as playing out slowly over the course of 3 months, not 2 days.

And staying in touch with someone doesn't mean that you speak to them regularly or even daily. All that means is that you'll hear from them from time to time. Maybe once every two weeks, maybe once a month. . .touching base from time to time.

"Does this still apply in this case?"

Absolutely.

"Do I wait for him to text - because he said he would?"

Why would you NOT do that? If you think that intervening and attempting to take the lead to control things and speed them along is going to help, it won't. That can not only backfire in your face. . .but you, yourself, said you're not even ready for this right now. You, yourself, said it'll be months before you are ready.

So why attempt to speed things along, when you're not even ready for those things yourself yet?

Let's say you DO speed things along - what then? Let's say you do contact him, and he does begin to communicate regularly again, and he does begin to immediately date you again. . .and he begins asking for a commitment immediately again. What then? You've sped this along, now you have him, and HE is ready - but YOU are not. What then? Are you going to ask him to wait again? Are you going to speed things up only to push him back and ask him to wait all over again?

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

That'd be setting yourself up for failure dear. I don't recommend doing that. Instead, I recommend letting this unfold slowly as it may.

"Or is it okay to send one next week if he doesn't?"

I would not do that. You're not even ready to jump back into this right away anyway, ya' know? And why the rush? A month or two has gone by since you've seen this man or spoken to him - and he's still speaking to you, some months later. So why all of a sudden this feeling and sense of urgency that, if you do not hurry up and make contact, somehow this will all fall apart and you'll lose him forever?

That's not the case at all. It's been months and he's still here. And he'll still be there 3 months from now, 6 months from now, a year from now. He's just proved that to you. So there's no reason to rush this along at all and risk placing everything in jeopardy by doing so.

"What do I do if I see him next Thurs (if he did not text me)?"

You go the gym, and you workout. You don't mention it at all, because you're confident and you're not going to signal to him that you've been desperately waiting on his contact. Instead, you don't change your behavior at all, and you go about things as "business as usual" - which will keep you approachable in his eyes.

If you start questioning him already, without even giving him the chance to contact you first and take this slowly at his own pace, you risk him deciding he does not want to place himself under that kind of pressure or into a situation like that again.

"Am I supposed to still act like a happy carefree girl, or show him that I care/miss him?"

What behavior were you showing that DREW HIM TOWARDS YOU at the gym? Were you chasing him around professing your feelings for him? Or were you indifferent and carefree and doing your own thing, going about your business as usual?

Think about it. You DID NOT go into the area you saw him in. Instead, you LEFT that area. And when you did that, what happened?

HE came to seek YOU out ;-)

So why would you even consider changing that behavior now, when it actually just WORKED for you?

Anonymous said...

Mirror,

"Umm. . .it's only been TWO days dear LOL ;-)"

And now it's SEVEN days! :-(

LOL, I'm joking, I know what you mean and do agree that it's a bad idea to attempt to lead and speed things along when I'm not even *ready* to move things forward. I have too many things going on at the moment.

The reason I ask if it applies in my case (not leading/initiating) because - I was the one who broke up with the gentleman.

If *he* broke up with me, I 100% know what to do: he should be coming to me, initiating contact, making amends, proving he won't hurt me again. He'd have to do a lot to get me back.

But since I broke up with him, wouldn't he be thinking the same thing that I should be the one to show interest, show that I've changed, show that I wouldn't hurt him again?

Do genuinely interested men still initiate - even after they've had their heart broken?

Maybe at the time he DID want to text me (because I was looking pretty hot in my yoga pants lol) - but after he had time to think it through.... he thought, I broke his heart why would he invite that possibility again...and is secretly waiting for me to contact him to make him feel safe to proceed?

- Vivian

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Vivian,
"But since I broke up with him, wouldn't he be thinking the same thing that I should be the one to show interest, show that I've changed, show that I wouldn't hurt him again?"

I believe you did show interest. When you mentioned that he had not responded to your last email communication, and also when you agreed to accept text communication from him again - when he said he'd text you.

Being "open" is more than enough of a green light. A woman who isn't open to a man, would not have responded positively to his mention that he'll text ;-)

"secretly waiting for me to contact him to make him feel safe to proceed?"

If he felt it was necessary for you to signal further that you're open to an approach from him, he would've hinted for YOU to contact HIM. He would've said, "Text me sometime."

He didn't do that. Instead, he said he'd be in touch with you. And you agreed to that. That's a green light and an "all is well" for open communication from him.

Remain patient and give that some time to happen ;-)

Anonymous said...

Mirror

FWB is getting to be a popular option for men these days to have regular sex without commitments. I am against it primarily because it has felt to me in the past like I was a glorified hooker, nothing more. The guy is not involved in your life and your not in his. The woman is nicely "tucked" away for when he needs you.

My question. Why do so many women agree to such a superficial arrangement? I can understand some aren't ready for a relationship, so they go casual temporarily. FWB relationships after some time involve some feelings after an attachment has occurred (at least in my case). I would not be able to separate feelings with the sex.

What are women to do? Is it best to be super clear in the beginning with a guy that you want a "commitment"? not FWB? Or would they just lie to say what you want to hear, and basically use you for sex?

I went through this recently and am having a hard time letting go due to the feelings that developed for him. In the end, a startling revelation occurred - he only wanted FWB. Emotionally I was crushed.

Seems like we have to "interview" a guy at length from the start to detect what his true intentions are. Even then men have been know to lie and some of them are masters at it.

I would appreciate your comments and any tips on how to avoid emotional involvement with a man from the beginning, until it is clear he wants what you want!


Tanya



The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Tanya,
"Why do so many women agree to such a superficial arrangement?"

I believe that many women believe that they're entitled to behave like a man when dating. I believe that many women confuse the feminist movement of the 60's to believe they've been given that right when dating. And they have. Don't get me wrong. We can all live how we see fit for ourselves.

But that's not what the feminist movement fought for. They fought for equal pay, women's rights, etc. They did not fight to be a man in a relationship. And I don't believe that a lot of women truly understand just how damaging it is to their self-esteem to participate in those types of arrangements. Sure, you can have fun and sure, you're in control to an extent.

But to what end? What's the end result? What are they actually receiving from that?

Nothing. Because those FWB situations lead absolutely nowhere.

Women bond through physical contact, while men do not. So all a woman is doing when she participates in those situations is:

1) Permitting herself to become emotionally invested in someone that isn't investing emotionally in them.

2) Placing themselves at risk of being hurt when they suddenly want "more" from the man and he refuses.

3) Suffering damage to their self-esteem and confidence when that rejection is received from a man they've been sleeping with regularly and now have feelings for.

Why do that to yourself? Why put yourself through that? And for what? Nothing is ever going to come out of that - there is NO REWARD for participation.

"FWB relationships after some time involve some feelings after an attachment has occurred (at least in my case)."

Exactly. That's my point. And it's not just in your case, it's in MOST cases for the women because again, women bond emotionally during physical contact (while men do not).

"Is it best to be super clear in the beginning with a guy that you want a "commitment"? not FWB?"

Absolutely. When a man tells you that he does not want a relationship - BELIEVE HIM. When a man tells you that, he's not worth dating if you're a woman that actually wants a committed relationship. And no amount of free sex is EVER going to change that.

"Or would they just lie to say what you want to hear, and basically use you for sex?"

Some may lie. But that's why you do not jump right into be with men. It's wise to wait a minimum of 30 days before doing so (or about 8 -9 dates). A man has to PROVE himself GENUINELY interested FIRST - before receiving sex. He has to stick around and wait. And if he's not willing to do that, then he does not receive sex.

That's how you "filter" genuinely interested men from those simply seeking sex. And that's how you protect yourself from being hurt.

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

"Seems like we have to "interview" a guy at length from the start to detect what his true intentions are."

The trick to that isn't interviewing them - it's OBSERVING THEM.

Silently observing what they do, what they say and most importantly -- if their ACTIONS align with their WORDS. When they do not, that's a big red flag warning that something is very wrong. When a man says he cares for you (WORDS), but then disappears (ACTIONS) - those actions do not support the words coming out of his mouth. Therefore, by observing you now know he's not being honest. Things aren't lining up.

Or when a man says he wants to see you (WORDS), but then turns around and goes out with his friends instead (ACTIONS) - you now know he's not being honest. If he truly cared for you, he'd be there with you. His actions are not supporting his words.

That's the best indicator that someone isn't being honest with you - when their words and actions do not align.

"I would appreciate your comments and any tips on how to avoid emotional involvement with a man from the beginning, until it is clear he wants what you want!"

There's actually an entire book written about the subject, that's backed by conducted studies. It's called, "The 30-Day Love Detox: Cleanse Yourself of Bad Boys, Cheaters, and Men Who Won't Commit -- And Find A Real Relationship:"

http://www.amazon.com/30-Day-Love-Detox-Yourself-Relationship/dp/1609619706

The book is an exploration of the topic and of studies conducted that showed that if a couple becomes intimate before 30 days, the likelihood of them being together a year later is less than 25%. If they wait at least 30 days, those odds rise. And if they wait even longer, the odds rise even more.

And what that science proves is that the longer you wait, the higher your odds are of entering into a relationship ;-)

There are a ton of FWB situations taking place right now because no one is waiting. A lot of people are jumping into bed with each other by the 3rd date. If everyone would slow down a bit, there'd be time for real relationships to develop.

Anonymous said...

Mirror,

I think there's just this impulse to "do do do" because I feel deep remorse for breaking up over text. 

Update: I saw the gentleman at the gym again (no surprise), but our interaction left me feeling down/sad. :-(

Can you give me your thoughts what happened through your non-emotional lens? 

So I went to an area facing the mirror to do my deadlifts. While doing it, I saw gentleman in the mirror on the cable machine. 

I looked at him briefly and then kept doing what I was doing.

After his exercise he walked over to me, and said "Gonna pretend you didn't see me?" And I said "Nooo you were busy working out." Then he hugged me. 

We then chat about my routine, it felt like he was dissing me because he asked "You're gonna do deadlifts all day?" 

I'm Iike yes that's what I'm training to improve. Then he asked a bit more about my routine.

By this time I'm huffing and puffing and he said he'll let me get back to the workout. 

After that I continued my workout - then later he walked off to do something else. 

When there was 5 mins before I had to leave, I felt like I HAD to say something because my gym pass expires today. It's the last day I can see him without scheduling a meeting. 

I looked around and found him on the treadmill and stood next to it. I told him it was my last day. We chat a bit more about gyms...then I said I got a 4 month pass to a gym near my place.

He goes, "Why'd you get a 4 month pass if you only go once a week?" WTF! I felt like he was dissing me again. Btw he didn't say this in a teasing manner - he had a straight serious face. 

I said, "I go 3x a week now." He replied "That's good" and smiled. And I continued "I workout my arms now, I know you can't tell but I have lats."

(When we were together, he was always bugging me to workout my upper body but I kept procrastinating.)

Anyways, I asked if he was almost done - and he's like yeah and he pressed the stop button and said he had to do abs.

I raised my arms and said cutely "Hug goodbye?" So he got off the treadmill and we hug very hard. 

After that I walked off and went to put away my equipment and stretch. When I went to the stretching area, I saw him there doing abs. 

I did my thing and when he was finished he walked off without saying anything.

I guess the interaction left me feeling so down because my reason for leaving him was because I didn't feel he loved me for who I was - now.

I never got the feeling that months later he now realized he accepts me and loves me as I am. Instead, he remembers what I used to be like - and he used this as a convo topic to see if I've changed.

It's deeply disappointing. :-( 

Mirror - what do you think? 

- Vivian 

Anonymous said...

Mirror,

Just to add to my previous comment.... as I had some thoughts come up:

I think the other reason why I felt bad after my interaction with the gentleman was because I noticed I was qualifying myself to him - i.e. that I changed my workout routine/habits that he didn't like when we were dating.

I couldn't help it! He kept asking me questions, so I just kept rambling about myself.

Having seen him twice - I just don't get why he approached/hugged me both times, but then talked to me in a distant way and started qualifying me.

- Vivian

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Vivian,
I think you've placed some high expectations on the situation after he mentioned he'd text you, and as a result, you're now deeply disappointed when you find that those expectations are not immediately being met :-(

Think of it like this - if you did not have ANY expectations in place, each and every new interaction with him would be viewed as a positive step in the right direction.

But because you're expecting progress immediately, instead of viewing each new interaction as something positive and a step closer, it's actually causing you to view each interaction negatively as a failure.

Baby steps dear - not giant leaps ;-)

Viewing it like that will take the pressure off of yourself, him and the situation itself. There's no need to place a lot of pressure or expectations on this. Things take time to grow and develop. And when they're "broken" in a sense, it can take even longer to mend things. So give the situation some time to unfold :-)

Anonymous said...

Mirror,

I'm feeling good again -- I can't thank you enough for your calming guidance! And thank you for being so caring and positive.

I remember gentleman telling me he doesn't talk to any of his exes because all his relationships ended badly, so I think it's a step in the right direction that he actually came up to me and also hugged me both times.

If he were still angry/hated/disliked me, he wouldn't have done that at all.

He's not the type to casually send a breezy "Hey how's it going" text without a purpose. So when he does text me, I think he'll have decided whether he wanted to be friends, or see if we could develop a new relationship.

Let's see what happens . . . :-)

- Vivian

Fire & Water said...

@ Vivian,
"I really get the feeling that you'd be an amazing person to be in a relationship with (I don't know the equivalent of "no homo" is for women, maybe "no lesbo"? LOL). You're so giving, positive, and thoughtful. I wish I could express even half of your fire/intensity! :-)"

Awwww...thank you SO much!!! I can't tell you how incredibly nice that is to hear :) It means a lot!
I feel like whatever we are, whatever gifts we have, they are both a gift and a burden. And we have to learn how to work with that duality. The intensity can be wonderful -at the right time and place- but I have spent so long learning how to control and direct it. And it can be very hard to find someone who can either ground it, deal with it and/or keep up with it. It's a wonderful gift, but it also carries some weighty lessons. While I understand your desire for it, don't wish too hard :)...there are many days when I wish I could be cooler about things :)...there's a gift and incredible beauty in that as well. The trick is balancing fire and ice and using the gift while learning the lessons :p :) ;). ....sounds much easier to just lay on a beach and sip something cool, doesn't it? Heehee.


"In sharing your preferences and what makes you feel loved/cared, I'm also getting to know you more and getting some valuable advice on how to treat my next partner. So thank you for that!"

You are most welcome! I'm so glad to be able to be helpful to you :)


(Cont'd)

Fire & Water said...

@ Vivian, Pt 2 :)
"But I paid really close attention to gentleman's preferences -- I know exactly what he likes. I even know what toilet paper he uses, LOL. I'm just awful at expressing my feelings for him through action. "

OMG..this is adorable..toilet paper? I love it!!!!! LOVE it. And that's perfect - you already have the information portion of what you need to do. Now, it's just translating that information into how you can act on it. Admittedly, toilet paper preferences are a bit tricky to utilize until you're..say...living with someone. I'm envisioning showing up on their birthday with a wad of their favorite wiping brand being a tad awkward ("I got you twenty-four rolls...case pricing woot woot!!!!!" *excited grin*). But seriously, that's the kind of thing I would find very impressive in a relationship. I'd be thinking "wow, she even knows what kind of toilet paper I like. Girlfriend pays attention!"...and that's really the crux of it all..when you put that kind of attention into someone, it really shows how you care. And it doesn't have to be every minute of every day. If just at certain points in the course of life, you do something that's really just spot on, that will demonstrate it.

"I wish he could see how much I cared inside, because every time I see him, I seem to just act nonchalant like he doesn't matter to me (like when I saw him 2 days ago!!! *smacks head*)."

No, no that's ok...that's the you he fell in love with, so don't stray from that. Now, you have to just wait for him to give you the opportunities to use the info you have. Like all those preferences you have filed away? There will be spots you can use them. As an example - and I'm sorry, I have to flip genders on this one 'cuz it's the best I can think of at the moment- I happened to mention to a guy I dated a few summers ago that I always craved ice cream sundaes in the summer and I make it a special thing to try have at least one every summer. So, if you were a guy , and you picked up on that and made one of our next dates going to get an ice cream sundae, I would realize you were paying attention, that you really listened to what I said and it would be a big gold star in my book. There will be opportunities like that, where the chance will come up for you to actually use all the details you have observed about him. Like, I don't know.. he invites you camping...and you aren't sure he remembered toilet paper, so you just happen to pack...his favorite brand :D And you don't have to highlight it or mention it yourself, but when he says " oh, that's my favorite brand", that's when you say "yep, I know" and give him a wink.


"Is there a way someone who genuinely cares can really get past that wall? Or can only time (like you said months or years) heal your relationship with the person?"

That is a really great question. I think, in many cases, the wall goes up because I've decided the person does not really care. And it becomes a protection for me from ever letting that person get too close again. However, I'm always at least polite to people, and that means there's a door there. In other words, I'm still going to interact with that person and if, during those interactions, they do things that show me they do care, I'm going to question my previous decision. The interaction becomes an opportunity for that person, if they want to get back into my life.

"Any more random invites in elevators? Haha."
LMAO!!!!!! Thank you for creating the really hard laugh you wished me :)..and, actually, I take the stairs now ;) :) :) :)

HUUUUUUUGS!!! Stay happy, girl...sending you big, fiery, good wishes!
F & W

Anonymous said...

Dear Mirror & Fire&Water & everyone following my gentleman story,

I have some "bad" news. Well, I have "bad" in quotes because it's not really bad because there's always a positive way to look at everything.

Gentleman has a new girlfriend.

It's been about 6-7 months since we broke up...and about 3 months since I last saw him at the gym. During this time, I was still working on my life, flirting and considering possibilities, but deep down, I missed the gentleman and still hoped for a reconciliation.

He said he would text me, and I believed he would.

Last night, I was fed up with the uncertainty (was he going to talk to me ever again? Did he lie? Is he just busy with school?) and asked the universe to tell me what gentleman was thinking/up to.

This morning I woke up with an urge to install Whatsapp (something I know he has, but I never used). I followed my intuition. After I installed, since he's in my phonebook, I could see him on my contact list.

His picture was of him and this girl at some outdoor event.

It stung so so so so so bad. He's probably happier with her, but it still really stung, especially because all these months I thought he would get in touch with me when he was ready... but now he found someone else.

I find it unbelievable he can get a new girlfriend so fast, but maybe that's a Sag thing. Or maybe I just take ages to move on to a new person.

I feel really lost right now. It doesn't hurt as bad as when I broke up with him, but it's a different feeling.... like planning for an event I was looking forward to for months, just for it to be cancelled.

Can someone just tell me - it's a rebound for him, that he still misses me, and we're still going to eventually reunite?!!? (Okay that was lame...)

Don't worry, I won't be reaching out to him.

It's a good thing I keep telling myself. I don't need to continue hoping/wishing for a reconciliation...and I can finally open myself up 100% to someone new (another gentleman? LOL!).

Mirror, you've been through this entire journey with me - from the time I met gentleman, to our breakup, and months later. Do you think that I should have ceased wishing/hoping as soon as I broke up with him?

Sometimes I feel like I wasted months, thinking that time apart would have made it possible to have a better relationship with him. He even approached and hugged me when I last saw him. Really thought things would progress. :-(

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

Fire & Water,

Thanks for your sweet and funny messages - you're so good at making me smile!! Sorry I didn't get to replying you.

You're right about us each having gifts that can be both a gift and burden, but it's absolutely magical when two people come together, and both of you complement each other - a great balance of fire and ice!

As I commented (should show up above), I found out gentleman has a new girlfriend. It's crushing, but he's not the last man on the earth who is fiery and needs me to ground him. (Trying to make myself feel better...)

What still lingers is this recurring visual I have in my head - of me taking care of the gentleman.. just putting his tie on, and seeing him beaming with happiness because he loves that I show I care.

You're going to think this is weird but the time when I felt closest to him was when he was extremely drunk on NYE, and I had to take care of him the rest of the night when he blacked out on the bed. I took off his tie, his socks, made him comfortable, gave him a kiss, and just stared at him LOL.

It just kills me that I won't get to do that.. but yes I know I can do it for the next boyfriend and it will be just as lovely/magical/amazing.... but I'm not there yet, so I'm still in this "my fantasy is crushed" state.

Did you get to have any icecream sundaes this summer? I LOVE strawberry ones! If you were nearby, I would totally suggest an icecream sundae date for us. Who needs men?!! (Half-joking, LOL..watch me get all infatuated within the next month.)

Hope you're enjoying your summer! HUGSSSSS!

- Vivian

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Vivian,
"Mirror, you've been through this entire journey with me - from the time I met gentleman, to our breakup, and months later. Do you think that I should have ceased wishing/hoping as soon as I broke up with him?"

Well, when you end something, it is always best to view it as exactly that - an end. Yes, things can change on a dime. And yes, they can, and often do, circle back around. But there are no guarantees in life unfortunately. And when you hold onto the past, you are not able to freely move into the future.

Look at it this way -- he was not making you happy.

That's why you decided to let him go. That was your decision, so you have to stand firmly behind it. At the time you were firm on it -- so there's no need to beat yourself up now for it. And had he returned, there's no guarantee that you would've been happy. It could have been more of the same and ended because of that once again anyway.

What's meant to be will be -- and this wasn't meant to be. At least not at this time. Who knows what the future holds.

But for now, let the past go and move into your future freely, without being internally bound to the past. Don't put it on hold thinking that the past might resurface. If it does, then you can stop and consider it at that time. But until that happens. . .keep moving forward ;-)

Anonymous said...

Thanks mirror.... funny that you wrote "they can, and often do, circle back around" because I just had one circle back yesterday (I'll share it in the DM thread).

I've been going for night walks lately, usually around midnight. I thought about what you said - and being able to freely move into the future really stuck with me.

I realized I was existing, but not living. I didn't put my life 100% on hold for the gentleman, but after reflecting, that % was as high as 60%. Being 40% open just isn't enough to move forward.

This morning, I did a soul linking guided meditation (for anyone who's interested, just do a search on Youtube - it's ep.23 by Madeline Rinehart) -- and it was incredibly powerful.

My intention was to heal our past relationship. When it came to visualizing his heart center, I saw that it was a mix of black and grey, whereas mine was a dull pink. I cried so hard at the part when our hearts were connected.

A lot of emotions and thoughts surfaced - e.g. I felt the pain of him loving me and me not reciprocating, me being hard on myself for my inability to express how I cared about him, how I couldn't open up my heart out of fear.

I felt today I was able to really forgive myself and forgive him. Not surface forgiveness, but a deep feeling of forgiveness.

From this point forward, I will work on radiating light and love and being truly open to life! I will send him nothing but love and happy energy. He deserves happiness as much as I do.

And I believe, if it is in the divine plan, we would reunite and it would be a much more beautiful relationship than the one we had before.

#positivity

- Vivian

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Vivian,
There ya' go -- that attitude is going to get you far, you watch. It's going to propel you into your future. And what you put out there, comes back three fold. If you send him lots of love and happiness, the universe will be forced, through the Law of Attraction, to provide that back to you.

It may not come back to you through him, but it WILL come back to you.

You've just broke free from the past. Keep your intention focused and laser sharp and your brain will begin "mapping" and linking you to opportunities in the real world that will take you on a journey, assisting you in reaching your goals ;-)

Anonymous said...

@Vivian
Just my two cents... What has occurred to me when I read your recent post - somehow you seem to be the one who was to blame in this relationship (you should have behaved differently, you should have loved him more, etc.) plus I am not sure about his saying to you he would send you a mail (and he didn´t )... Really, don´t blame yourself for anything, if there is anybody to blame at all, then either both of you or rather, neither of you...
Hopeful



Anonymous said...

Mirror, you are NOT going to believe this!!!

I love love love what you said about being propelled into the future, and getting what I put out there coming back three fold. Breaking free from the past feels AMAZING!

So, yesterday I accidentally sent an email to gentleman's WORK email that was intended for a friend (with a very similar name).

I didn't really realize until an hour later and started panicking and thinking whether I should apologize... and then sneak in a "miss you" LOL.

But I was too lazy to follow up, and figured he'd delete the email anyways.

This morning, he emailed to let me know I sent it by mistake and asked how I was, and whether I was still working on a fitness goal I had earlier.

I was shocked! He didn't have to ask me how I was doing. I took it as a positive sign he was open to keeping in touch.

I replied with an update about my fitness routine, and what I'm doing for work and asked how he was doing with work/school/etc.

He replied all excited (lots of exclamation marks)...he thinks what I do for work is exciting. Then updated me about his fitness progress and suggested, " We should go hit up the gym for a leg work out sometime!"

I should be excited, but I'm hesitant because 1) why does he want to work out with me when he has a gf?! 2) I don't have access to his gym anymore 3) I actually deleted his number to remove him from Whatsapp so if we end up moving back to text, he could find out

In the past, he said he cut off contact with all exes... he even showed me a message from the girl before me who he ignored because he was with me.

Mirror I'm not sure how to proceed, what do you think - and what should I say? It costs him $ to come to my gym. I know he might still be able to get me in for free at his gym, but I don't know if I should suggest this.

I do want to see him of course, but his enthusiasm really throws me off (because I know about his gf, though I deleted his whatsapp a few days ago so who knows maybe they are on their way out LOL).

I mean he has gone from ignoring my text/email, to being extremely icy in person (though he hugged/approached me), to not texting me, and now he wants to go workout with me. I'm CONFUSED!

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

Hi hopeful,
Thanks for saying that... I know I'm unnecessarily hard on myself, but I don't mean that I was completely to blame. I've started to realize it's neither of our faults that we express the way we love so differently and have such strong egos/pride.

Because he didn't fully appreciate how much I showed I cared, I stubbornly refused to do the things that made him happy (e.g. let him call me at least 2x a week, get a proper phone plan, respond fairly quickly, make him dinner).

We drive each other crazy with our differences (he's fiery, I'm airy), but that's probably why there's still so much passion. :)

- Vivian

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Vivian,
"Then updated me about his fitness progress and suggested, " We should go hit up the gym for a leg work out sometime!"

Don't read into that too much and take it literally. He said he'd text once before and he never did. And he now has a girlfriend - which means he's unavailable to you emotionally.

For all you know, even if he DID follow through this time, it might be to tell you this, and tell you all about her. So be very careful here, or this could end up hurting you and sending you zipping back into the past.

"why does he want to work out with me when he has a gf?!"

I'm not sure about that one, but it's not impressive :-( She likely would not be happy about this, and if you were in her shoes, you likely would not be happy about it as well. It just doesn't seem appropriate.

"Mirror I'm not sure how to proceed, what do you think - and what should I say?"

I'd just say something like, "Yea sure, that'd be great" and leave it at that. This could be all talk. If he's serious, he'll pick the conversation up from there with a time, etc. And if that happens, then you can explain that you no longer belong to that gym and go from there.

"I don't know if I should suggest this."

I wouldn't suggest anything. I'd just say "yea sounds good" and then put him to the test to see if this was just friendly talk, or if he's actually going to follow through this time. And I'd think very carefully about getting drawn back into the past -- particularly now that this time, there's a 3rd party involved, his girlfriend.

What if he brings her along, too??? It could happen :-(

Anonymous said...

Mirror,

I agree, it's not appropriate at all... but it just doesn't seem like he would be the type to do this sort of thing behind his girlfriend's back.

The gentleman I knew (or thought I knew) is fiercely loyal and devoted to his partners. His commitment level was at 100%. He openly showed me his phone, and didn't seem to have anything to hide. A stand up guy with strong character and morals.

That's the man I admired and respected.

Don't worry mirror, I will be careful going forward, and not permit this to hurt me.

So I replied his e-mail saying, "yeah we should go. But I can't get into your gym anymore, I already have multiple accounts lol." And he replied "oh ok well we can go to (name of my gym) sometime :)"

I then replied "sure, let me know. I go 2-3 times a week." Then left it at that, so it's in his court now.

He has to go out of his way to come to my gym to workout, so if he does follow up and we meet within the next week or 2, he could be serious.

I'll get to the bottom of it and find out what's going on with him, and update you.

- Vivian

Anonymous said...

Hi mirror,

Just popping in here to say that I'm done with the gentleman.

I'm not even sad, I'm flipping angry about it. As you guessed - yup, he has not followed through with working out with me (not really tracking the exact # of days, but it's getting close to 2 weeks).

It's possible "sometime" means within the next year, but that's ridiculous.

More I thought about it, the angrier I got..... I don't respect men who say one thing, and don't follow through.

The first time when he didn't follow through with texting me.. fine... maybe he was busy with school, didn't want to deal with me, had his own fears, whatever.

Second time, he didn't have to suggest a meet up, because I would *never* have even suggested it myself.

Maybe he thought it'd be fun to get my hopes up, or he was just asking to see if I was still interested (i.e. get an ego boost because I broke up with him).

I refuse to think of him in such a bad light, because that doesn't match my impression of him.. but who knows, people do change.

I spent the past 6-7 months thinking of him every single day, sending him good energy, imagining us happy. And what do I get?! 2 hugs, him saying he'd text but didn't, him suggesting a meetup and not following through.

He's not the guy I admired and respected in the beginning. The gentleman I know would never do fake ass sht like this.

He always used to say that I can trust his word. Clearly, that only applies when I'm his gf.

Sorry, just had to get that all out.

I'll forgive this behavior of his in time....

I think right now, I'm not in the right space to send him love and light. He doesn't deserve my energy.

Today I re-read the list of things I wanted in my ideal guy (I wrote it in March) - and for a moment, I just felt so happy and blissful.

I just have to believe that he will show up... looking forward to writing a happy update here soon!

- Vivian

Fire & Water said...

Hi Vivian,
Thank you- it’s been a great (extended!) summer – my best gf and I have been wringing it out every last drop of it  . And I did manage to get ice cream sundaes – I took my Gramma and we had a girl’s day!  You could def have joined in! I’m a chocolate chick myself 
I’m sorry things turned out the way they did with the gentleman – it’s so hard to expect something and move forward with that idea in your head, but then get something else…especially when what you expect is what you really want. I think, though, that in some ways it’s good that you’re angry with him at the moment – I find that anger is so much easier to use to heal then disappointment. There’s less energy to disappointment, but anger carries passion with it and you can use that to distance yourself and get centered in you again. And also, when a guy really lets me down and pisses me off, it makes me feel better about things ending because it shows me very clearly how little I’m losing. I hope you are able to use all the events that have passed in this positive way – and it seems like you are, which I’m so happy to read! I think this experience was a huge step for you on your journey and that you’re in a better place now for yourself than before you met gentleman. All your hard work and learning can only add to your life and bring you closer to the relationship you’re holding the vision of. I’m proud of you (if I’m allowed to be proud?  I know we only know each other by story) and I wish you so much wonderful energy and happy moments, now and to come! I look forward to that happy update…and some time adding my own.
HUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGS back!
Take care, girl!
F & W

Anonymous said...

Hi Mirror,

I recently started casually dating a Capricorn man 10 years older than me, and I'm not sure if what I experienced is a giant red flag or just a man who has good intentions but is terrible at expressing it.

My best friend has met him and feels he'd be boyfriend material so that confuses me even more.

On our last date, we had plans to go for brunch at a hotel (I love bacon). After he paid for parking, we found out the hotel restaurant is a restaurant I've *actually* been to before and the food's terrible.

He asked me "So where are we going then??"

I said, "Well... there's another great restaurant down the road."

On our walk there, he said "If we were going to go to the other restaurant, we didn't have to pay for fancy parking at the hotel." I thought, "Ok he has a point, but that's a cheap thing to say."

I forgot when but he also said that I sort of messed up our plans because he wanted to take me to eat eggs and bacon, but I had already eaten eggs for breakfast (I didn't think there would be eggs & bacon at a hotel, but totally forgot about breakfast options).

That and it took me longer than usual to get ready (I was really tired from my trip) so instead of eating brunch, it turned into lunch. (This upset him I guess?)

Anyways, we got to this other restaurant, and I discover that - there's not much I can eat on the menu due to my dietary restrictions (I'm gluten free, dairy free, lectin free, low histamine, low fiber - LOL)

He knows about my pickiness, but about 10 minutes in - he closes the menu, and goes "You know what, just pick whatever you want to eat."

For the next 10 minutes, he had one of his arms on the other chair, he's looking off into the distance like he's pissed off, and HE SAYS NOTHING FOR 10 MINUTES STRAIGHT!

My heart sank and I almost walked out. It made me so uncomfortable and even scared!

After 10 minutes I got fed up, asked if he was okay... and he laughed sarcastically and said "Yeah I'm okay hahaha."

ANOTHER 5 minutes later... he finally says that I shouldn't compromise and force myself to eat something that I didn't want to eat. If I couldn't find anything I could eat, we should just leave. So we got up and left and he said that he didn't mind that I was so picky but he didn't know my preferences and it frustrated him.

We did end up going to another restaurant and eating good food, but after the date I just kept thinking about how much of a turn off it was for him to just sit there in silence, making me feel scared.

He has been great in some ways (picks me up, pays for meals, waits for me to get into my building before driving off etc), but in others he isn't - he hasn't bought me flowers or anything romantic, he doesn't really plan anything other than a meal + hang out and usually that's only 2 days in advance, he doesn't open the car door for me.

I guess my standards are so high after dating my ex who did everything right, but my brother keeps telling me perfection doesn't exist and some guys are good enough.

What do you make of his behavior on this date? I feel that his intentions are good .. he just wanted to make sure I was happy, but he made me feel unhappy and stressed out.

Just 2 days ago, he told me he knew I was obsessed with stationery and got some supplies for me from a store online. I know he's trying, but I can't help replaying the horrible date in my head.

Vivian

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Vivian,
"I guess my standards are so high after dating my ex who did everything right, but my brother keeps telling me perfection doesn't exist and some guys are good enough."

If someone (man or woman) has 70% or so of your "must have" qualities in place, then the other 30% can be worked out (as compromises). BUT - your "must have" list cannot be a mile long LOL. When it comes right down to it, there are probably about 3 to 5 qualities that a potential mate must have in order to fulfill our needs.

The rest are usually qualities that would be "nice to have" - but aren't truly "must have" qualities.

"What do you make of his behavior on this date?"

I think he was caught off guard and wasn't prepared for the obstacles and challenges. He experienced some frustration, as all human beings do when frustrated, but he ultimately remained patient and attentive to your needs and maintained his composure as best he could and made the most of it.

It could've been a LOT worse. He could've instantly labeled you "difficult" or "high maintenance" - been rude to you - and either left you or cut the date, never to be seen or heard from again. He didn't do that. He powered through, even if uncomfortable, and carried on. Which is what confident gentlemen do ;-)

Insecure jerks make a scene, cast labels upon you, and disappear.

"I know he's trying, but I can't help replaying the horrible date in my head."

Take some responsibility for your part in that experience, forgive yourself, forgive him. . .and continue forward.

1) He invited you for brunch, but you didn't like the food there.

2) His invitation was for brunch, which always includes breakfast items, but you had already eaten breakfast anyway.

3) The date was delayed because you were running late, which meant lunch was now the option.

4) At the second restaurant, which YOU chose, there was nothing on the menu you would eat.

That is the chain of events that created the obstacles to the date that led to his frustration. And as much as I hate to say this dear - YOU were responsible for all of the above LOL.

So take responsibility for your part in what took place, show appreciation to him for handling it like a confident gentleman (instead of an insecure jerk), forgive yourself and simply move on.

You're never going to find a human being that doesn't experience frustration. The best any of us can ask for is someone that handles it maturely, patiently and with dignity and grace (not anger, hostility, rudeness and immaturity). In my opinion, even though it was uncomfortable, he handled this maturely like an adult. Yes, he experienced frustration but he's human. Anyone in that situation would've experienced frustration.

It's how that frustration is handled that makes the difference ;-)

Anonymous said...

Hi mirror,

Not proud to admit, but I made my way onto Tinder of all apps, LOL. Still on POF going on dates, but nobody that really is the One.

I'm wondering what you think of the exchange with this fellow (a cop) that I sort of like.

So after about a week of chatting - he asks me when he can take me out for dinner (that is tailored towards my dietary preferences- he was specific, and it showed he read my profile!).

I'm a wee bit suspicious because the way he writes is different than his instagram posts/comments (potential catfish!).

So I told him my availability and that I prefer we do something active (like check out an event, do something new) and if we're into each other dinner would be awesome!

He replied saying: "What if you're a serial killer" (huh? so... it's ok if I'm a serial killer if we go for dinner?)

A few hours later he added: "But sure I'll take a look and see what's going on"

I replied: hey didn't you say you're a boxer

He goes: well you might have a gun or date-rape drug

Mirror - I'm confused, is this flirtatious banter? Like why is he suspicious of me?! Is he offended that I think there might not be chemistry?

It's lovely that he suggested a dinner date instead of some boring coffee date, but I've had terrible first dates that involved food and drinks, and it's painful to sit through the entire thing if you don't like the person. I'm unable to just get up and leave if I'm not feeling it.

I'm worried that he might actually be a good guy who wants to treat a girl special, and I'm here messing it up by rejecting dinner. What do you think?

Vivian

Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Vivian,
"What do you think?"

I'd be more concerned that this individual is not who they say they are, and they're hiding behind a fake profile.

For instance, when someone is asked, "Didn't you say you're a boxer?"

And they respond with, "You might have a gun or a date-rape drug."

That response makes absolutely no sense. It ignores your question. And it seems inappropriate for a policeman to be talking about rape and guns on a first date.

It feels like this individual is playing with you. As in - fake profile, catfish.

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