Throughout primitive and ancient times, the idea of “man” and “masculine energy” has meant something different from currently held modern views.
Central to the belief of many primitive tribal, ancient cultures is the idea that a male must earn his right to be a man through hardship - he must "earn" his power.
In modern culture, the idea of “manhood,” as a stage of male power as a prize to be earned, has become as far away from previously held beliefs as is possible. Instead, what we have are a set of “fake” rituals revolving around male dominated social activities that range from sports to dating/sexual milestones.
As a result, the word "man" has become a synonym for "male." When the reality is, just because you're a male, doesn't necessarily mean you're a "man" in the true sense of the word. And because of this weak association, a modern man in today's culture is a man simply because he is bigger, stronger and has male sexual organs.
Males no longer have to “earn their power” as a man - as a right to be considered a real "man" in the true sense of the word.
So what you're left with is a society that's filling up fast with emotionally immature "man boys" instead of real men.
Killing the Boy to Save the Man
He had to kill the boy inside (through hardship and rituals of "initiation").
When a male is young, he is a boy in the sense that his actions are young, naive and represent the true child. In tribal cultures the child, the young boy inside, must be sacrificed in order for the real man to live and manifest within him.
Male initiation ceremonies ranging from lion hunting, vision quests alone in the desert, anesthetic free circumcisions and more have been used as transformation methods intended to "strip" away the boy inside by many tribal cultures. Similar ceremonies revolving around killing, warfare and tremendous acts of drug induced torment have been used alongside those to reach the true meaning of "masculine" power.
In order to survive, the man must move toward true masculine qualities...leadership, strength, protection behavior, mentoring of younger males and an unshakable belief (confidence) in his purpose - as a man. The pain of killing the boy inside leads to a deep level of change that forever impacts the man to advantage - to the survival of the society as whole.
Modern Western countries now tend to be too soft and sheltering of males to allow for these deep lessons that transform boys into men. Add to that a change in the modern definition of parenthood and a loss in the value of traditional gender roles - and we're left with a population of adult boys, "man boys." Instead of real men in the true sense of the word.
The Rise of the Adult Boy
A famous author writing on the subject of hero myths as stories of transformation from "boy to man" presented the ancient belief that a man must be created by following nothing more than the path of the "hero." The path of the hero follows many hardships, trials and deadly obstacles which the man must overcome.
He may be of many cultural types - a lover, king, warrior, redeemer/saint - and may even be a reformed tyrant beaten down and transformed by hardship. No matter what the type of hero or his journey, all of these stories have one thing in common:
For the hero to survive he must kill the boy...and rise to be a hero.
It's no accident that most of these myths involve, in some way, winning the heart of a fair lady. Modern culture no longer encourages traditional hero worship and male initiation through methods of proving manhood - either to a woman or a culture.
As a result, males in many modern cultures now lack the true transformation of "boy to man." We no longer have men - we have “adult boys.”
Many men are now living in a state of "adult boyhood," trapped in a state of immature "boy" thinking. Which has lead to an increase in "Adult Boy Syndrome" also known as "Peter Pan Syndrome," and an abundance of adult men with low EQ (emotional quotient) and EI (emotional intelligence).
We have immature adult males no longer able to present themselves as true men in any capacity - from leadership to careers to relationships.
The Adult Boy in Relationships and Dating
This lack of true male energy could not be more devastating to your dating life - for men and women both. No longer does a man have to win a women by proving his leadership to her.
The mature male pursuit of a women requires that a man have the ability to provide the woman solid proof that she should accept his leadership as a man. The obstacles of a hero in winning his princess are the barriers in providing the proof she needed in order to give herself freely and willingly to the real man.
As a result of this “lack of proof” in the modern day male, the "adult boy" has taken a majority place in the dating world and women now give themselves away too freely to low value men (adult boys) who have no intent of maturely fulfilling her needs as a women.
The adult boy cheats, lies, is selfish, lacks confidence and is insecure. The adult boy lives off of a women rather than provides for her. The adult boy "plays" at dating and plays for sex, much like a child plays with toys. He sees nothing wrong with the destruction of women to feed his “boy” needs.
In short, this has left a litter of destroyed, abused and ruined women in society. Women no longer know what it feels like to have true primal feminine feelings that come with being with a mature man that exhibits masculine energy. True manly behavior in the real "mature" sense has sadly become an unknown quality to many women today.
And regretfully, this situation shows no real sign of stopping any time soon because society no longer requires initiation rituals that strip the "boy" from the male.
Feeling the Masculine Energy
Inside every women, at a primal level, is a built in mechanism to “feel” the presence of true male qualities. Indeed, in many cultures, a males failure to kill the boy results in low levels of attraction and quality mating for him.
In short, primitive cultures believed that when it came to mate selection - a woman would know a real man when she "felt" him.
The transformation of "boy to man" allowed the man to be changed on a deep level resulting in an unshakable projection of true "masculine" leadership qualities and confidence. It was that which allowed the new man to “prove his leadership” while allowing a woman to safely express the true feminine qualities nature provided her.
A real man (masculine) will, on a primal level, literally allow a woman to be what she truly is - a woman (feminine).
In modern countries, we see the same two processes in males repeating all over the world as a result of failure of initiation (stripping away the "boy"):
1) The young male fails initiation. Thus he remains too “nice” and gives away his power to the woman via insecure, approval seeking behavior (immaturity). He will have success in dating only with time and hurtful experience.
2) The second process is one of skewed male power. The idea that a man should dominate a woman. This leads to an abundance of female hating, misogynistic, using and abusing men.
Women want neither of two.
If the boy, however, undergoes initiation in his tribal culture - he emerges as a man who knows how to “keep his power.” As a result, women feel differently, see him differently and he changes the type of woman he looks for in selecting a partner.
* * * * *
Modern Man And Failure To Earn His Power by Peter N. is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License. (No Derivative Works — You may not alter, transform, or build upon this work. Noncommercial — You may not use this work for commercial purposes. Attribution — You must attribute Modern Man And Failure To Earn His Power to Peter N. (with link).)
About the Author: Peter is a specialist in Biomechanics and Periodization Science. He is also a qualified Teacher. Peter has an extensive background in Sports Science and due to his Military skills, he is in demand to a wide range of clients. Currently working as a SOF Performance Trainer while running his own personal training business, Peter is an enthusiastic reader of many subjects with an interest in outdoor pursuits and sports.
44 Comments:
This is written by our dear Peter, ladies.
Peter has been a valuable member of the community here and the insights he shares in this piece - honestly - left me speechless.
I had to stop and take a couple of hours to process the information contained here because - it hit the nail on the head - knocked me right out, LOL ;-)
This is a nice article, lots of food for thought within it and I will re-read a number of it's paragraphs to it sinks in. But is there something missing? There have not been tribes in the UK, for instance, for many thousands of year, yet up to the 1800's / 1940s men were men, weren't they? So I thought.....
Therefore, could it be said, that it is because countries like the UK and USA (very Westernised countries), no longer have Compulsory Military Service for two years when boys leave school - that has added to the rise in 'Adult boys?'
There must be other factors too....technology is one...
Thanks Peter.
@AnonWoman,
I'm sure there are a number of contributing factors that make for a perfect storm here, but I believe Peter has covered the biggest culprits:
1) Modern Western countries now tend to be too soft and sheltering of males.
2) A change in the modern definition of parenthood.
3) A loss in the value of traditional gender roles.
I imagine it's the combo of those 3 major factors that has resulted in what we're left with today, LOL ;-)
Congrats on a great piece, Peter! Am so glad to have met you and MOA, and to have learnt from the both of you :)
-Alana
Great article.The family dynamic has changed so much in this day and age women are looked upon as head of households. Women need not accept low level behavior from men instead force him to step up stand up and show her he is.capable of having her mind body and soul
Finally!
Grabbing my coffee to read.
Thank you MOA and Peter!
Reading this,my mind immediately visualized that scene from 300,the one with the young spartan boy having to overpower and kill the wolf.The tension,the hardship,the resolution-boy becomes man.
Yes,in regards to what the makings of a real man are,I always think of ancient Spartans.Remember Leonidas,at the end,wounded and pierced by hundreds of arrows,his last thoughts and words went to his queen 'my queen!my wife!my love!'-in that order.And that order just shows the role of the woman,in his life.Status,companion,lover.
What it should be like,what every woman wants.That scene is so powerful,I'm always left in tears lol.Because the contrast between that era and today's society is just HUGE.
I think the 2 most poignant factors to blame are society and parenthood.There are still many cultures out there in the world who give birth to men and raise them to be real men,real protectors,real providers.The western world looks down upon that.Even western women,with their independence and aggressive leadership roles,look down at a man like that.There are so many episodes in the SEX and the City series,where Miranda(typical strong accomplished woman),laughs real chivalry off.Remember Aleksandr Petrovsky,reading poetry to Carries,playing the piano,treating her like a ''woman''-even Carrie,with all her need to be loved,found it corny.Miranda found it a sign of weakness.
So my point is,it is what it is.Us women are playing just as much a role in degrading that gender role equation.
End of the day,stay true to your principles and needs and hopefully we'll all find someone to mirror that back at us.
Thanks Peter,
great article. Explains a lot of things..
Toro-Scorp
@AnonWoman
You’re absolutely correct in your view taking your comment as whole the situation is a symptom of modern following the WW2/National Service era. The same principles apply but can be extended to a modern example, here you provided a perfect one in lack of National Service. That’s the same principle just with more modern way of delivering the lessons. Modern western life really has little that requires a young man to “man up”. I simply use ancient themes here from my own study of Archaeology, Ancient history and Philosophy.
@Sista’Taurus
You provided a very good example in your reference to Spartan to culture. Women were valued more there than in any other Greek state at the time. This value was made sacred by being written into Spartan law. Spartan women were all given the best quality food as with the Spartan males. It was also a legal requirement that Spartan women be educated at the same schools as the males they were also required to participate in Sporting pursuits. A fantastic milestone in female olympic history is that the first women to win an olympic honour was Spartan women. They were required to take an active and central part in the Spartan economy. They controlled the family wealth, agriculture and estates. Spartan men had to let women use the wealth they provided freely in this way as they would be living with the army until 31. Men also couldn’t own a house with a women after they had that maturity following leaving active service. In other Greek states a women were allowed only enough money to purchase a single bushel in grain provisions for home use. In terms of marriage/sex Spartan by law had to be of a “mature age and understanding to the point of knowing how to enjoy sex as an adult”.it never mattered how old she was if she didn’t feel able to enjoy sex as a mature women then no advance could be made sexually as to do so was considered an extreme act of violence under Spartan law. Men had to prove it in other ways and as a result the age gap between male a females in marriage was less than in any of Greek state at the time more mature relationships existed. There’s a conversation on record from historian Plutarch, the wife of King Leonidas was allegedly asked why Spartan women were the only women in Greece who "ruled" their husbands. She replied, "because we are the only women who give birth to men." In Spartan society in was very much accepted that only men with the self-confidence and security to accept women as equals were men at all.
The acceptance of gays in society. The increase in the feminine types of gay men (like, half) who have come out also increases the role of men being more like women and less masculine.
Peter- Congrats on a well written, interesting, rarely touched upon topic.
Based on the few things I shared about myself in the comment section of "Why A Man Cheats" thread you couldn't have done a better job cutting me down. Smiling as I typed that!
Regarding low emotional intelligence. I'm beyond low, practically prehistoric and that only bothers me because I end up with women that are emotionally intelligent. WTH are either of us supposed to do with each other?? Anyway, it all pretty accurately describes my pre-23'ish years.
In retrospect I think for many of us life is just too damn safe. How do you know what you're made of without a life altering experience? You know, the opportunity to dig really damn deep. Something very few mothers want their son's doing in my experience (maybe for good reason). By the age of 23 I 'd spent a cumulative total of 4 months in hospital and undergone 27 hours of surgery. All of my injury's were self inflicted from the seat of a snowmobile, dirt bike or quad. I love playing sports but I needed the risk sport wasn't providing (not so much anymore). My last big wreck was very, very bad. That experience... yea, I understand and agree with much of your article.
I think I'll stick with the idea that wisdom makes a man though, and that comes about through considerable age and experience.
Anonymous Male
@Anonymous Male,
You're funny, I like your sense of humor. I know you've tagged yourself with low emotional intelligence here, however, I dunno . . I don't think you're quite as low as you may think - prehistoric and all, LOL.
You're here and you're sharing and you're thinking and you're discovering - and you're respectful even during the times when you disagree.
And to me, that says a lot - being respectful when you disagree and being able to do so in a mature manner. A real caveman during times of disagreement would hardly be able to spit it out - it'd end up something like, "Ugg, ugg - you witch."
It'd be two or three words (as many women here experience with men, especially via text) - not complete sentences, LOL. And with me, on that other post, you'd have gone right for the jugular as men here have done in the past - yet you didn't, you shared your differences of opinion in a respectful manner and held a mature discussion about it . . . you formed complete sentences and all, LOL.
So I dunno, I think you're doing alright ;-)
@Peter,
I'm diggin' the Spartan topic - very interesting, indeed :-)
@Peter
I always catch myself fantasizing about finding my modern day Spartan man.any clues as to where he might be lurking?In what god forsaken cave or dungeon?Lol
*She replied, "because we are the only women who give birth to men." *
That's brilliant and thank you for such an insightful response.Ah the myths,so haunting,BUT like Alexander the Great once said "we are most alone when we are with the myths"..so I'll stop daydreaming lol.But that's one other historical figure that I'd love to clone and wife up.Woef!
@Sista'Taurus
*Every great crisis of human history is a pass of Thermopylae, and there is always a Leonidas and his three hundred to die in it, if they can not conquer*
It is rare spirit indeed these days, as for finding a Spartan man no idea you might have to improvise on that LOL :-)
lexander is one of the men of history who inspires me a lot...you can see why. He's very well worth a detailed study ;-)
Very nice article, liked it.
@Peter
*Every great crisis of human history is a pass of Thermopylae, and there is always a Leonidas and his three hundred to die in it, if they can not conquer*
Absolutely.And one of those great human crises that we are experiencing right now,is just the one your article covers-LACK OF REAL MEN IN MODERN DAY SOCIETY
So herein lies the issue but HOW do we shift this around and take charge and make a change?By us women reclaiming our female powers/status back?Ok,check,but the sad reality is,that for every woman out there who stays her ground and remains true to her values and self-worth,there is another that will just open up her legs.
I don't even know what's happening to this world today.everytime i turn on my tv,there is a a new reality show on teenage mothers,and it drives me insane as to how that is so COMFORTABLY AND NATURALLY accepeted.13 year olds bearing children.children bearing children.I mean great balls of fire!lol..it's like a case of Alice down the rabbit hole.WHERE will this world end?
Just my 2 cents,lol
Ms Mirror- Much appreciation for your response and the obvious energy expended on this site!
Sista'Taurus- "for every woman out there who stays her ground and remains true to her values and self-worth,there is another that will just open up her legs"
Don't worry about this type of woman. You don't want that kind of attention from a guy and if you do, well, you won't with self respect and/or age. Its highly likely she'll be used and discarded. Whether this is evident to those around her or not she WILL feel it as she's looking for more then a physical connection and doesn't get it.
BTW, popular public perception of the feminist movement has the creation of the above woman as the pinnacle of female strength. Ass backwards huh!
I remember having this conversation with my sister.
Just say NO.
Its really easy. Seriously, you can't go wrong.
Guy comes on hard (you haven't known him long):
-You say no, he gets mad and leaves. Great for you in every way.
-You say yes, you have sex. Even if he likes you well enough to keep coming back after he's found another, heck, even if you get married, he WILL NOT TRUST YOU. Dude will always question settling down with someone that let him slide into her pants that easily for many, many reasons.
Say no. You just set yourself apart from the crowd and became interesting. Ms Mirror's covered this. If you rebuff the guy in a way that doesn't crush him and he thinks you are at least interested in him he'll likely stick around to get to know you. Of course if he's into playing and gaming he'll be gone in a blink which just saved you time and heart ache.
A good women says- LACK OF REAL MEN IN MODERN DAY SOCIETY
as much as
a good man says- LACK OF REAL WOMEN IN MODERN DAY SOCIETY
Re reality TV- Totally agree. Buncha crap. I just download the few things I watch now.
Anonymous Male
@Anonymous Male,
See...you're not the prehistoric caveman you think you are ;-)
Thanks for sharing that with the ladies here. Male voices, mature, honest male voices are always welcome and are necessary here. I couldn't agree with you more about the comparison you made regarding men feel there's a lack of good women (for varied reasons).
I recently had a similar exchange with a man, but for different reasons. But the point is, if everyone, man and woman, holds themselves to their highest standards and a personal set of ethics, we'd all have better options out there.
I mean, how can women out there behaving like men about their sexuality expect men to respect them...when they don't respect themselves. Women have good intentions about it, they are raised being taught to please others, do for others. But the problem is, when you conduct your sexuality like that as a woman, you become similar to an appliance. Everyone plugs you in, turns you on, uses you temporarily..then shuts you off and walks away. All of a sudden, as a person, you end up being used much like a microwave...in short 4 minute bursts, LOL.
And things are just so sad nowadays in American society. We glorify and value the wrong things and encourage the wrong type of behavior. For instance, today on Valentines day I heard a commercial for this company that will send gutted teddy bears and decapitated black roses to your exes.
Honest to God, anyone who uses a site like that, takes the time to actually do something like that...they must be certifiable. Crazy. That is the cruelest thing I've ever heard in my life.
But you know what....I bet they had record sales today. It's sad.
@Anonymous Male
Thank you for your insight.It's always refreshing to hear a man's point of view.
And absolutely no,i don't bother about that type of female.It's more an observation as how that factors in creating that GAP between gender roles in society nowadays.Most women do make it easy for men and as a result we are surrounded mostly by arrogant,self-entitled,unsubstantial males.
And we all swim in the same pond and us women have to learn to read between the lines,recognise red flags and separate the weak ones.It's like a second job,I'M TIRED!
I mean,what are we doing swimming around in the same pond?we need to reinforce apartheid in this case.Losers to the left,gentlemen to the right.I'll say..
And I came across men on this website complaining about how SOME of us women make it too HARD for them.Are you kidding me right there?Makes me scream inside.Us women are actually more than often in disadvantage because we develop feelings and emotional attachment much sooner,by nature,as opposed to you men,who need time to even figure out you 'like' us and more time to miss us and connect that to any kind of ''feeling'' you may have.
Exhausting,I'm exhausted just typing about this.
@ Peter,
I finally had the time read this. I like it. And I think you got it.
Don't stop being a man, Peter. HUGS!
p.s. You got any friends in their late 40's, 50's that think like you and live in the Northeast? (lol - just kidding - SMILE!)
Sista'Taurus- No problem!
I have no gender bias whatsoever. What I find interesting is recognizing the equal opposite of men and women and how easy it is to get caught up in an us vs them. I think as soon as one realizes the average man/woman would love to be in a healthy committed relationship the focus becomes, "then why, whats going on here?"
One of many reasons I think has to do with the absent family structure. As it continues to break down men and woman are having to learn their respective gender role the hard way. Whether one or both parents are absent or dealing with complex issues of their own makes no difference. How can the outcome = a well adjusted clear thinking adolescent? How long until the mental fog dissipates and a healthy relationship is possible? How much heart ache and baggage are left in the wake of destruction? Couple that with an immoral rogue society and it makes for a perfect storm.
I absolutely understand where you're coming from Sista... but, I'am gunna spin what you said and show you a guys equal and opposite perspective:
"we are surrounded mostly by arrogant,self-entitled,unsubstantial males"
Go to a dating website and go woman hunting. If you do this like a typical guy you're gunna start with the above average looking female profile's. After these women list the many traits they MUST have in a suitor the profile is done. They don't have anything to offer but a pretty face despite the fact they expect the white horse and all. Its because of the pretty face and what its gotten them in the past that they act as they do in many situations. No different then the self-aggrandizing men in your statement that are falling into bed with easy women is it? The people the money and all the stuff... Its all fake.
Anyway, in-light of the above would it be wrong for a guy to then think:
"we are surrounded mostly by arrogant,self-entitled,unsubstantial females"
I think guys genuinely really need to be needed and women really want to be wanted. A guy feeling useless to a woman is no different then a woman feeling indifference from a man. Many guys are looking at potential women and question what they could possibly offer. There are more women now enrolling in university then men. Women are increasingly becoming better paid and educated. This trend hasn't stopped men from marrying down financially though. Its still preferred, I think, for the reason I just presented. Leaves intelligent educated woman in a bind and literally in a class of their own...
Feel free to correct/challenge me in any way. The above opinions are just that, opinions. I'am ready and willing to change them at a moments notice if it makes sense too do so.
Anonymous Male
@Anonymous Male,
Yes, things always work both ways. And I think that just as much as many modern men need to take a look at themselves in the mirror, so too, do many modern women. Not ALL, but some do, both men and women.
I'm all too familiar with the type of woman you're making reference to here. (Actually, that's probably a great topic for an upcoming post. Because many women can learn from it just as I feel many men can learn from the comments and topics discussed here on this site and it may even bring more men out of the shadows here and into the comments to share their thoughts. We cover sexually aggressive women here to an extent, but we've never covered the gold digger or the girl with unrealistic expectations from men before.)
And I couldn't agree more with you on this:
"Leaves intelligent educated woman in a bind and literally in a class of their own..."
So very true. And it's funny you bring up the topic of women stating their "must haves" in online profiles. I've seen this first hand myself.
I saw a show on it once. A female relationship coach took a woman just like that, that had all these lofty criteria men needed to meet in order for her to date them. "Must be over 6 feet tall, must make $100k a year, must want children, etc."
Well, the coach brought 400 men into a football stadium and she instructed them to leave the field when the woman rattled off one of her criteria that did not apply to them.
So the woman begins, running down the list of her "must haves" in a mate . . . and before she even finished ticking off all the items on her list. . .
The field was empty, LOL.
There wasn't one man left standing. Her expectations were so high and so demanding and unrealistic that there wasn't one man out of 400 that even came close to qualifying, LOL.
The woman's unrealistic expectations narrowed her potential dating pool to such an extent that - there wasn't one man in 400 that could even come close to qualifying as a potential date for her.
But in defense of women I will say - not ALL women are like that. Just as I have said in defense of men - not ALL men are "man boy" cavemen. There's a big difference between a gentleman and a caveman. And there's a big difference between a gold digger and a true lady.
I heard a saying once that applies:
"What most people need to learn in life is how to love people and use things - instead of using people and loving things."
@Anonymous Male
'One of many reasons I think has to do with the absent family structure'.
That's the cherry on my pie(or the crust lol).I too come from a dysfunctional family background.My parents have stayed together to this day,however,growing up,there was never any emotional exchange in the house.Conservative,eastern european type mentality.Combine that with me being constantly beaten as a child(typical ancient education lol),my father would always quote'he who spares the rod,hates his son'.Biblical nonsense,though he's an atheist.The product-ME-going after love like a starving wild dog,choosing the wrong men subconsciously,because in my mind of minds,i deserve being abused to no end,that is ''love'' in my book.As educated and independent as I am,as self confident and self assertive,with all my values and principles-I lack the basic structure to any healthy human interaction.And that is how to give and to receive,when to say NO,when to pull back.
I'm aware of it too,which only drives me mad when I keep walking in the same old shoes.I'm working on it,have been working on it and will forever be working on it.It's my path to self awareness and a better me.But how many people out there can look at themselves and realise that they need to work on the ''self'' first?Not many.
I digressed,it's in my nature,lol,sorry.My point,family structure,upbringing are vital of who we become later on.
"I think guys genuinely really need to be needed and women really want to be wanted."
Do they?Do men like being needed?sigh..
" Leaves intelligent educated woman in a bind and literally in a class of their own...
"
I do not know what to reply to your gold digger/unsubstantial woman argument because unfortunately,I'm right there,in that lonely bind..at least nothing viable,right now.Yet,I compete with those type of women everyday and more than once,they win over the rest of us ladies.
P.S.I do not seek to alter your views,this is an informative,inspirational exchange..
Sista'Taurus- Yep, abuse and dependency issues are very common. 'Ideal' wouldn't detail many childhoods though I don't think. Unfortunately in those early formative years we're vulnerable and unable to exact any change. The lottery of life as seen now I guess. The key is recognition and then effort, tons of fun LOL
As for men being needed, I see it in myself and all of my buddies. Not sure if that's good bad or natural though. For all of us it comes in the form of providing. I don't see it as a power thing though it could be argued as such. If we can't provide, fix or do anything for you in our eyes we're useless to you and likely won't even approach. I'm missing something in this explanation/observation...
"Yet,I compete with those type of women everyday and more than once,they win over the rest of us ladies."
No doubt, but do you think its any different for some men? Nice/good doesn't necessarily mean 1st right.
"P.S.I do not seek to alter your views"
Please do. I don't do the belief system thing. Truth is never 'fixed' which is why I don't want my opinions/views to be. Debate is good. Your opinion is as valid as mine.
Anonymous male
@Gemini50
Really sorry I missed your comment here.
I have no intentions of letting my standards as a man or gentleman drop. I have my principles and I wont let them drop. Even though at times I do believe it costs me in some ways.
I find myself frustrated with the state of modern dating and my place in it. Due to recent events as MOA can agree, my attitudes are not always of value for a lady.
As I stated to MOA I think its maybe too much to ask in the modern world of dating for me to get what I need in a lady. I question if it can exist for me at this point.
HUGS...I Hope all is good with you :-)
very insightful article and views. i completely agree with the family dysfunction theory for lack of real men. i too come from a family where emotional disconnect is too visible in the married couple. with no emotional bonding i have searched for love in every other human relation/interaction but call it bad luck have never found reciprocation.which might explain my too nice a behaviour and being too gentle, may be my spiritual bent too. result i m on a constant "love rebound".LOL. hugs to all of u.
MOA, do you think you could write a piece on insecure men - and perhaps how to distinguish them from uninterested men?
Thank you!
-Alana
@Alana,
Sure, I can work on that topic :-)
My observation is that being "nice" has been massively downgraded in modern society because it is seen as weak. Perhaps in some cases it does stem from inner insecurity however it is important that the bath is not thrown out with the bathwater. The true essence of what it means to be "nice" is one of the positive traits of the inner boy along with joy, creativity, excitement and innocence. While of course there can be negative traits of the boy I do not support the "killing" of the boy. Instead I believe that the boy can be guided by the man and in doing so "nice" gains true inner confidence and stability and insecurity will naturally shift. The inner boy learns about honor, responsibility and inner strength but the man does not become void of heart, joy, innocence and gentleness.
Whether a man is with his partner or male friends he has responsibilities and his ability to live up to those responsibilities is his mark as a man. In friendship and love the presence of the inner boy can teach and show the man many things such as creativity, playfulness, compassion and innocence just as the man can teach and show the boy traits such as responsibility, awareness, thoughtfulness and honor.
I have spent much time living and working with tribal communities in Africa and I have often heard from the elder men that being around the playfulness of the boys is what keeps the older men young at heart. There is also an acceptance and respect for the fiery warrior blood of the young men and acknowledgment that it will become more mellowed and wise with age though it is noted for it's use in getting things done. With every age there is light and dark and the work of the tribe is the guide the light to become strong. As the light becomes strong the dark naturally diminishes.
Peter, well done. I could go on a rant, but will forebear. Two anecdotes: (1) some years ago, I took two boys (sons of a friend) to Gettysburg. At the souvenir shop, what did they want? A koosh ball and a truck. Dear God . . . I blame their father-- a good friend, but a bit of a "bunny male" (i.e. expecting stronger men to guard him and his):(2) the pic on my on-line profile that gets the most "Likes" after the one in which I am wearing the garb of my profession? My military portrait. Need more be said?
@MOA, djbuck1 and everyone
Although I follow my own principles and I believe extremely firmly in my own leadership I have to say I sometimes(only very rarely) get frustrated by my own age group and a bit older. I look at them and how they do things then I think to myself “Why don’t you get it? Why don’t you understand?” It almost feels to me like a lot these people don’t have principles now. How can these people accept such low standards in themselves? But then I just cut those people out because that’s a negative drain on me that I just don’t want in my life.
I was raised to be a certain way and trained to be a certain way. I had very strong models in my life in that area and I still do. I value the principles I was raised to believe in and I value being a gentleman. I have nothing to prove and I am totally secure there. I have to be thankful for everything that made me who I am because it’s driving me to achieve everything I want.
This will only work to my advantage. I can sit back and watch these guys being stupid because it only makes who I am more valuable to the right people in all areas of life. More to the point I really don’t care because I know these guys have false security and false confidence where as I don’t. I don’t need to act the way these guys do or prove anything I know the man I am. Also I have a lovely lady in my life who I feel very lucky to have with me. I’m proud of her and everything she is. I have to be thankful of everything she’s done. I have a great career I’m one of the best at doing what I do. I’ll just keep being the man I am.
I saw this recently in the news here there was situation where parents complain that military actually sent their sons to fight. We live in age where parents allow children to join the military because they want them to travel a bit and go on government funded holiday. However when they have to do what they signed on to do those parents are first to complain “they didn't join the army for this why is our country sending them to fight? They joined to see the world and have a bit of experience”. I don't know if you get that in the USA but in the UK that happens more and more.I was angered watching that on TV recently. Military service seems to be valued so low these days.
MOA, Peter - Both the write-up and all the comments, articles have been great.
I do have a quick question for Peter - I am planning to be a single mother soon and if I were to bring up a son, given we no longer have initiation etc, without a male in my house, do you think it would still be possible to bring up a good man? I would love to hear some of your ideas on this. Thanks and sorry if the topic does not actually align to this article per se. I really want to have children but I don't want to settle for a man just because I want to have a family. I feel that having someone for the sake of it defeats the purpose of bringing up a functional family in the fear of God.
Thanks! - Katie
The result of a study published in the February 2013 edition of American Sociological Review by Julie Brines and others.
Men who help with the traditional female chores had less sex than men who mainly did the traditional males chores of fixing things around the house.
I thought I would add this to the mix.
@ Edward Warner,
I scanned the article, but need to set aside time to read it in its entirety.
But off the cuff, the statement makes sense. Women now are in the workforce making the same effort as men to succeed, manage and lead. Gosh, when we get home, we want our man to take care of the manly things... we've already been fixing things, directing things and bringing home the $$ all day. I, for one, don't want to have to do it at home too.
His vacuuming does not entice me into wanting to join him in the bedroom and show him how much I appreciate him, because vacuuming is something I can easily do.
Build something, or fix something, or let me see you being a strong role model to children, that gets me wanting his magic.
Hopefully, men want the same of women. We'll take care to make our home comfortable, nurture our families, and men will, in turn, want our magic -- the magic shared between two. ;)
p.s. From what I scanned in the article, I think the rates were 4.7x/mos for manly chores, and 3.2x/mos for female chores. I had to wonder: What came first, the chicken or the egg? Is there less sex because the men who do female chores want it less? Or are they having less sex because of the female chores?
I'll have to read the article to see. :)
This has been an interesting piece to read, thank you Peter for being man telling it like a man.
I've read a lot of the articles on the blog over the last week with increasing interest (and the comments too - I like how the comments are not censored but are answered).
As a woman in her mid-forties who has entered the online dating world and has so far been disappointed I have gathered a lot of information and tips that I will now put into practice. And again, Peter, thank you for confirming what I have wondered about. Even 15 years ago things were different.
Hi Peter- I agree with all you have written- thankyou! I am doing online dating with men in their 50s and early 60s. ( I am a female mid 50s)My problem here is the majority of men I am meeting have simply forgotten how to go after a woman. They have been married 20-30 yrs, and been involved with partners that have taken the masculine role for too long that they have now lost the art of feeling like a man in meeting a new woman...most say I want a "friend", and offer their phone number to me almost immediately. I tell them I dont call men and I dont give my number to strangers on the internet- they are taken aback, as so many women are taking the masculine role and doing the calling and the chasing. They have been married so long they say they dont know anything about dating- they dont know the rules or what to do- so they just sit there waiting for the contact requests to roll in! It seems something happens to older men...is it that they loose their inner urge to go after a woman, or are they trying to be nice by saying they want a friend? Im not looking for a friend. I want a man, who can still go after his desires- who still has some spark in him-lol.
Really interesting article. I have never posted on this site before, but a dear friend of mine often sings the praises of the advice she receives on here, so I am hopeful this might help me too.
I have been dating a guy for about a year now, and just in the last couple of months there is a trait that I have seen a handful of times which I really don’t like. From the beginning I have always liked that he is very manly, quite old fashioned in terms of his protection of me, he is very chivalrous but not in a way that would anger feminists - I have a successful career and am head strong and these are qualities I think he admires rather than being threatened by, he is also successful himself.
There have been two occasions now in the last month, where we have been socialising and he has got angry about the most minor of things towards me and has proceeded to be quite nasty, snidey remarks, mocking of me when I ask him why he is being so nasty. I tend to walk away from these situations, it’s like when he is angry there is no getting past this red mist and best to leave him to calm down. The next day we both go off to work without a word spoken and then later it will end up being brought up but never in a way that results in an apology.
If it ever gets discussed further down the line, he is very open about how poorly he behaved and that he was horrible etc but it takes days for him to realise this and actually when it matters i.e the next day when i feel rubbish, upset etc if i try and address his behaviour he is just extremely defensive. The latest example is when we were out with a mutual group of friends, and he was ready to go home – he overheard me say to one of his male friends that we were going as he didn’t want to stay out any longer. This was the most innocent comment in my opinion, but has resulted in a row where I have been accused of being emotionally manipulative, and using his friends to emotionally blackmail him and how dare I, he said some nasty things with no real response from me at all as I was just so shocked, and then he slept on the sofa . I am usually very good at reflecting on my own behaviour and am aware of my faults, but when I genuinely see no blame on myself how do I cope with this.
I know in my self that however much I love this man, the way he has spoken to me on these two occasions is not something I am willing to accept, but I want to be able to get through this as the other 99% of the time with him I feel secure, loved and happy. Any advice on how to deal with a man who is too much a man, to let the pride down, drop the ego and apologise for his wrong doings?
@Anonymous Mar 4, 11:52 AM,
"The latest example is when we were out with a mutual group of friends, and he was ready to go home – he overheard me say to one of his male friends that we were going as he didn’t want to stay out any longer. This was the most innocent comment. . .but has resulted in a row. . .I have been accused of being emotionally manipulative, and using his friends to emotionally blackmail him. . .he said some nasty things. . .and then he slept on the sofa."
This man seems overly concerned with what his friends think of him. I gather that what upset him was the fact that you revealed that HE was the one who wanted to leave. For whatever reason, he clearly does not want to be the "bad guy" or the "party pooper" in situations.
And truth be told, that's a "ME" problem, and not truly a "WE" problem.
Meaning, there's something going on within himself that for whatever reason, he wants to be viewed as the good guy, the fun guy, and anything even slightly negative, such as being the reason the fun stops (because he wants to go home) is really upsetting to him -- even though it's the truth, and a rather innocent one at that.
If you're at a party and you'd like to go home, there's really no reason to pretend otherwise, or to experience anxiety or anger over the fact that your friends actually know this. So what that tells me is that "appearances" are pretty important to this man. Everything has to look peachy - all the time.
And I find it ironic that he's actually making accusations towards you that HE, HIMSELF, is guilty of. "I have been accused of being emotionally manipulative, and using his friends to emotionally blackmail him." Isn't it manipulative of HIM to want to give FALSE IMPRESSIONS about himself to his friends? And isn't his scolding of you for not aiding him in that actually emotionally backmailing YOU -- so that you're forced to do his biding and assist him in keeping up these false appearances with his social group?
"Any advice on how to deal with a man who is too much a man, to let the pride down, drop the ego and apologize for his wrong doings?"
I fear that in order for this man to truly realize the circumstance he's placing you in, and for him to truly understand that he's overly concerned with appearances and possibly displaying insecurities as a result (lack of confidence to just admit you want to go home for fear of being ridiculed by friends later for it) -- you may have to take a stance with him on this.
Meaning, the next time this happens, you need not try to "fix" it for him. And instead, you actually hold HIM accountable for HIS OWN actions, instead of taking the fall for him. And doing that would involve you doing nothing, and walking away until an apology is received from him. Because each time he does this, and you jump in to immediately "fix" it for him by apologizing, or lying for him, or covering for him, or taking the blame afterwards as if you DID do something wrong. . .all that does is validate for him that HE is right in his behavior, and YOU are wrong.
A grown man who is confident in himself does NOT worry about what friends or others think of his behavior. A man that is confident in himself has nothing to prove to others. True confidence involves being genuine and authentic as a human being. And psychologically, there are some specific traits that genuine, authentic (confident) people display:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-squeaky-wheel/201503/the-7-habits-truly-genuine-people
Cont. . .
1. Genuine people speak their mind.
2. Genuine people respond to internal expectations, not external ones.
3. Genuine people forge their own paths.
4. Genuine people are not threatened by failure.
5. Genuine people can admit their faults.
6. Genuine people are not judgmental of others.
7. Genuine people have solid self-esteem.
". . .genuine people can tolerate and absorb failure and criticism, admit their faults, and be accepting of others because they are not threatened by imperfection. Indeed, having solid self-esteem means, by definition, that you can absorb both negative and positive feedback and acknowledge aspects of your character that might need work or improvement without diminishing your overall sense of self-worth."
Bottom line - these are HIS own internal issues to deal with.
Instead of placing a lot of energy into creating FALSE impressions that keep up FALSE appearances with others, he needs to be GENUINE and stand CONFIDENT in who he is, without fear of criticism from others.
If he were to do this, these situations would cease happening.
So what might need to happen here is, the next time this happens, you may need to walk away, not attempt to "fix" it for him, and instead - leave him alone, to himself, with his own thoughts for a few days. And then once he eventually realizes his behavior was the cause (which you stated he usually does). . .open this topic up for conversation. Because it's only at that time, when HE is ready to communicate, that he may be willing to explore these issues within himself. . .and admit that it's his own insecurities and fear of criticism causing these problems within the relationship.
Hi there, I've been dating this guy for 3months now. Both in our 30's. The majority of our relationship has been long distance. He would like to get married, and he talks to me about it. Ive gotten no formal proposal from him however, just something we would both like and have talked about. He has told me to go pick out the ring i like and tell him and he'll buy it. He would also like for me to move out of state to be with him, to live as a married couple. I've been learning about rings and ring shopping, it's been a lot of work. It's a little confusing that he hasn't done any of the ring shopping effort, or cared to learn about diamonds at all. Not sure if it's just a guy thing? I should also mention that i did tell him not to just buy me any old ring that he likes, because i would like to pick it out. I guess i just thought he would be more involved? idk. Also, Ive asked him to pick the chapel, and he hasn't yet. I've also asked him to plan the honeymoon vacation, and he hasn't yet. A part of me feels like i'm doing all the work which sucks, but I chalk it up to him being a lazy guy. Is this normal? We planned to get married in the next 60days. Also, is it normal he doesn't have any close friends? He seems content spending his free time alone, but a part of me wishes he desired to be just a little more social. Thanks Mirror
@Anonymous Oct 31, 6:28 PM,
"Not sure if it's just a guy thing?"
Well dear - ACTIONS always tell the true tale. WORDS are just air.
And when a man's words and actions to NOT align, there's something wrong and it signals there's a lack of honesty.
When a man says he's interested in getting married (WORDS), but then does absolutely nothing to make that happen (ACTIONS) - something is amiss.
"I've asked him to pick the chapel, and he hasn't yet. I've also asked him to plan the honeymoon vacation, and he hasn't yet."
Maybe a better question is, why the rush??
It's virtually impossible to know someone through and through after only 3 months. So why the rush to walk down the aisle? Why not instead enjoy plenty of time getting to know one another and enjoying that journey of discovery together -- instead of placing all of this marriage pressure onto yourselves and the relationship?
Do you know what this man is like when he's angry? Do you know how he deals with his feelings? Do you know how he pays his bills, cares for his household and organizes his life? Is he responsible about that, or irresponsible? Do you know his family well? Are they, or will they, be accepting of you and vice versa?
Does he have a good work ethic? Does he keep a clean, organized home? Are his finances in order? Do you have the same goals 5 years down the road, 10 years down the road? Do you like the same foods? Does he like to cook, or will he expect you to be doing all of that for him? Does he run around with the boys on the weekends, or will he be staying in with you? Does he run from problems or does he stand firm and deal with them head on? Does he want children? Does he want them in the next year, 5 years, 10 years? Can he provide for children, or his he lazy and irresponsible? Will he flake out on you and leave you with that responsibility on your own?
Many of those questions may seem very minor to you, but when you're married, these simple, yet very complex, things are the things you'll be forced to wade through with him on a daily basis. . .and they can become huge chasms in the relationship.
It's critically important to thoroughly get to know one another before making a life commitment to them.
Cont. . .
"A part of me feels like i'm doing all the work which sucks"
This is what I mean. Is that what it's going to be like to be married to him? Is he going to dump all of the responsibilities and burdens onto you to handle constantly?
"I chalk it up to him being a lazy guy. Is this normal?"
No. Not all men are lazy.
Many men actively involved in their relationships. And healthy relationships that stand the test of time require that BOTH parties be willing to do the WORK required to have, and maintain, a relationship.
"We planned to get married in the next 60 days"
Why? Why are you both denying yourselves the enjoyment of the journey of discovery with one another to instead jump right into the hefty responsibilities of married life?
"Is it normal he doesn't have any close friends?"
Most people have at least one or two close friends. When you're young, your social circle tends to be much bigger, and as you age, that gap closes. . .but there's generally at least one or two good friends around.
A good indicator of what it would be like to be married to a man is to see what he's like when you're dating him. That's what the dating period is all about. It's meant to help both parties determine if the other is capable of making them happy and fulfilling their emotional needs and caring for them properly.
When you're dating a man and he shows you he's lazy, complacent, a tad irresponsible about his relationship, and unwilling to do the work -- then you can bet that's pretty much what'd be like to be married to the him.
He's already got you questioning a lot of things about him.
You don't want to be spending the next 20 to 30+ years doing the same exact thing. It doesn't get better just because you got married. People generally do not change that much after marriage. Their situation changes, but as people they are who they are - married or not.
Is this man capable of making you happy and fulfilling your needs? Is he capable of being responsible and providing for you and contributing in equal share to the relationship? Is he willing to do the work necessary to have, and maintain, a relationship?
Because the reality is that if you're finding out now that may not be the case - chances are none of this would be any different after you're married to him.
I'm not trying to talk you out of marrying this man. But I AM trying to get you to think about your own happiness here, and take the time to get to know this man properly before you do agree to marry him.
He has to PROVE himself WORTHY of you as a man. And that cannot be done in 3 short months.
How does feminism comes into this? We entered the work force and asked for equality, gained control of our bodies with contraception pills and society is not the same. And the result is roles have changed. Now women sometimes are the providers of a household and some men stay at home. This all affects the modern day dating and courtship. And it is all very blurred. Never the less fascinating how modern society is transforming.
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