"Mirror, Mirror on the wall . . . where did he go, and why doesn't he call?"

Dating a Disappearing Man, Reached Your Limit?

Dating a disappearing man that reappears periodically without notice, and after rudely disappearing on you without explanation, is certainly an experience that many modern day females can relate to.

This can be seen in the discussion of the topic on this piece titled “Disappearing/Reappearing Man: What to Do” which is no longer able to accept any further comments on the site as it’s reached the 5,000 limit.

Yep, I’d say a lot of you have been dating a disappearing man and have reached your limit. I’d go even further and say it’s a modern day dating epidemic. So what’s a girl to do?

Well, I won’t repeat the suggestions I’ve shared on that piece because you’re free to go there and study up on it. However, I will say that after a couple of years’ worth of discussion on dating a disappearing man, and after many thousands of personal stories shared there, it has become apparent to me that the best way to deal with a disappearing man who reappears periodically to dredge things up (before disappearing again) is to focus on yourself – and try your best to forget about him.


Probably not what you were expecting to hear, I understand that. There are very detailed suggestions listed in that article referenced above if you'd like to give it a try. But after a couple of years of observation and lots of discussion with women dating a disappearing man, it has become clear to me that when these types disappear on you, even if they circle back, it generally leads nowhere. And that’s not because there’s something wrong with you – it’s because there’s most likely something wrong with them.

Men who display this pattern of behavior generally do not correct it. I’m sure you’ve heard the old saying, “You can’t teach an old dog new tricks.” And the reality here is that we’re dealing with old dogs, ladies. Plain and simple – and they’re not learning any new tricks. They’re simply repeating the old ones over and over and over again for as long as they’re permitted to get away with it, which brings me to my next point.

People Can Only Treat You as Poorly as You LET Them


When we permit these patterns of behavior to play out in our lives over and over and over again, it should come as no surprise that the same outcome is simply repeated again as well. Yet it perplexes us. If he didn’t like me, why did he bother to come back? If he wanted nothing to do with me back then, why is he ringing my phone again now? It must mean he likes me. It must mean he’s at least slightly interested, right?

Yes, no, and maybe – for all the wrong reasons.

Is he interested in sex? Yes. Is he ready for a committed relationship? No. Has he hit a dry spell? Maybe. Either way you slice it, after a couple of years listening to stories from women out in the trenches dating a disappearing man, I can honestly tell you – I can’t think of one time, not one time, that it’s ever ended with “and they lived happily ever after.” I’ve read a ton of stories about women outgrowing their disappearing man (DM), or boring of him, or tiring of him, or meeting someone else in the 3 months it took him to make his 3rd reappearance. But no, in the 5,000 comments and stories shared, I’ve never heard a story that concluded with a “happily ever after” ending.

What I do hear is a lot of women beating themselves up, blaming themselves, wondering what’s wrong with them, questioning why he hasn’t called and asking when he will. And after a couple of years of researching this topic, I can stand here today and tell you – it’s definitely not you – it’s a modern day epidemic.

Behavior that was once considered abnormal is now slowly becoming the accepted norm. Hiding behind devices in texts and emails is making it even easier to transition society as a whole into the acceptance of this – accepting sociopathic behavior that displays no sense of remorse, guilt or empathy for the individual on the other end of the line. It’s easy to just disappear these days, because half the communication that existed in the first place existed in the virtual world, on a device screen, and not in real life. Gone are the days when you’d have to hold these discussions face to face. Nowadays, don’t like someone; don’t want to see them anymore? Hey, no problem, you’ll never have to speak to them again – just don’t answer any calls, emails or texts from them and voila’ – problem solved.

Throw in online dating and the endless buffet of easy opportunities there and what you end up with is a bunch of kids in a candy store, running around experiencing a fantastic sugar high that they never want to come down from. It builds the ego, it gives them something to brag to their buddies about, and they rarely, if ever, have to face any consequences for it. Hence, the birth of the disappearing man.

Ahh, utopia does exist after all, no?

The Mind Trip a Disappearing Man is Running on You


Many of these bad boy “players” are using a psychological tactic that they’re not even aware of (although some are VERY aware and well educated on the matter). They think they’ve got some magic sauce about them that women just can’t get enough of. But really, all they’ve done is stumbled onto a very real fact about the human psyche:


I just watched two men, both mid 30’s, on a reality television show the other night talking about women and dating - the issue at hand? One man had two great women on his hands. Sigh . . . problems, problems. Yet, he was patting himself on the back proudly about the fact that it was only two – which apparently is down from his usual norm of 8. Yea, you heard me, I said 8. And the other guy he was talking to didn’t blink an eye at that number.

So I think it’s safe to say – rotating 8 women at one time, misleading them all to think you’re “relationship ready”, talking about having babies and a future with them, and using them for sex until it’s time to move onto the next gal in your rotation – is apparently “the norm” in the lifestyle of many young modern males these days.

Should you hold your ground and level the playing field when dating a disappearing man that you sense has you locked into a rotation that he hasn’t exactly been honest about? Absolutely.

Should you hold your breath waiting for him to circle back around again? Don’t bother; it’ll be your turn again before you know it.

Should you pick up that phone or respond to that text when he does circle back around? Probably not – unless you want the first outcome to repeat itself a second time.

So What SHOULD You Do?


Forget having a “talk” with him and instead, do something constructive that will actually benefit YOU - and have that hard talk with yourself.

Ask yourself what it is that causes you to keep taking this man back. What is it that causes you to want to continue dating a disappearing man, despite already knowing that he’s not capable of making you happy or fulfilling your needs. Dig deep, because the answers don’t lie with him – they actually lie WITHIN you.

I repeat - people can only treat you as poorly as you LET them. If you do not permit people to act upon you, then you don’t get hurt, you don’t get used and you don’t let other people make you feel like crap over their shortcomings in life. You check their baggage at their door and you walk away into your future.

I’m not an overly religious individual, although I do consider myself spiritual – but when someone says something that is so very powerful it sends vibrations to your very core . . . then the message must be shared. Having said that, I’ll let Bishop T.D. Jakes take over from here:


“When people can walk away from you, let them walk. I don’t care how wonderful they are, I don’t care how attracted you are to them, I don’t care what they did for you 20 years ago, I don’t care what the situation is. When people can walk away from you, let them walk – because your destiny is not tied to the person who left.”

Can I get an AMEN, ladies!

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1072 Comments:

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The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@chk61.
I'm so happy for you!

I know you've been here a long time and I know you've had your doubts along the way and also suffered some setbacks as well. And I know how strange it must've always sounded to be hearing things that were hard to maybe wrap your thoughts around because they seemed foreign at the time or possibly even counter-productive.

But when YOU BECOME the change you want to see in others, and you begin to live it and accept the lessons learned and keep trudging forward, a funny thing happens - you eventually draw like-minded individuals right back towards you.

We live in the days of instant gratification but regardless, that's not how life works. I realize the experience you're having right now has been a long time coming. . .but alas, it came and now - it's here. It didn't happen overnight and you have to put a lot of hard work into it and move through a lot of uncomfortable emotions and experiences. . .but it's here now, and hopefully - it all feels worth it.

And ladies please realize and take what chk61 is saying to heart. . .men who make you feel badly about yourself are not worth one single ounce of your time, regardless of the emotions you may have involved. If a man makes you second guess yourself, feel incredibly insecure or unworthy, and causes you doubt, anxiety and worry - he is NOT your Prince Charming.

You don't have to chase (it's actually rather self-defeating behavior), you don't have to plead or beg or cry, you don't have to question, you don't look in the mirror and hate what you see and you don't seek validation. . .when you find a man that RESPECTS the woman you are, and isn't insecure or too fearful, proud or egotistical to man-up and just show it.

That's the CONFIDENCE that REAL men have - they jump in and take the lead, no problem, no whining, no games. They know what they want, and they set out to get it.

If you're experiencing anything less with a man, then you're probably actually dating a little boy at heart that hasn't yet released the inner child and grown into the man he was meant to be yet.

I hope this becomes an incredibly joyous experience for you, chk61 :-)

Gem50 said...

@Chk61,
Ditto to Ms. Mirror's last sentence.
Thank you for sharing.
Enjoy!

Fire&Water said...

Today is my day for quickies:
1) @chk61 - just wanted to say how happy I am for you! I've been following your story, among many others, in the comments here. May many more good things come to you!
2) Wanted to say thanks to Gem50: your play-by-plays have been helpful to me as I practice this new way of doing things. I really appreciate all you've shared! Sending good wishes your way also!

Anonymous said...

@chk61
Wow, what a turn in your dating experience. And the best thing in my opinion is that you are attracted to the man as well. I am glad that you are on a good path and a positive inspiration for some of us who are still struggling. Personally, I am not in the best possible period in my life now but despite everything I believe that good relationships exist. Hopefully, yours will develop according to your expectations. Good luck to you. And to everybody else too.
Hopeful:-)

chk61 said...

Thanks all. Yes, it's funny...on our first date I wasn't *that* attracted to my new flame but I gave him a chance and he grew on me rather quickly. Now when I just think about him I can't help but smile because he is so smart and funny, caring, and yes, attractive. It certainly helps that he seems to be rather nutty about me and isn't afraid to let me know. I would be really surprised if this one pulled a disappearing act (I don't expect it but then again, one never knows!)

He's a gentleman, especially when we are walking in my city or crossing the street, he makes sure he's on the outside to protect me, holds my arm, stuff like that. It's not overbearing, it's manly and thoughtful. The last two were not like that, they were much too insecure. In fact, one was a musician and one night years ago I met him at a club in a not great section of town. After watching him play, we walked out together at around midnight and this jerk let me walk to my car ALONE in a bad area, never asked me where my car was, etc. The new guy would NEVER in a million years let that happen.

And the D.M. that led me to find this wonderful site...seriously, in retrospect he treated me like dirt. I regret putting up with it and even going back for more but it's OK, I had to learn a lesson and I will *never* put up with that kind of behavior again. I would much rather be alone.

It's funny, even with this new guy, no one is perfect and there are couple of things that are not ideal. Yet he is so genuine, fun and romantic that I am willing to overlook them, and he's already shown he's very willing to make some changes to "keep" me. I made sure things did not move "too fast" because I did not want to have any regrets and because I felt confident that he wanted to pursue me.

I'm enjoying this new romance, feeling secure that I know he wants to see me, I want to see him, I don't need to chase or call or try to nail him down. Thanks to all for your warm wishes and to Mirror for her wisdom and guidance!

Anonymous said...

Hi Mirror, this is Anonymous on May 7th 4:45pm. I have a strange and confusing update about my situation.

About a week after we broke up, he texted me to check up on me, as he said he "worries when he doesn't hear from me" (uhhh....we broke up! You're not supposed to. ;). When I told him I was good, have been busy, and the space between us was good because it helps us both move on, he got super offended. I ended up calling him to clarify his needs, after all, he told me he needed time apart and to move along with my life, he has no reason to be angry. He ended up telling me the real reason why he couldn't be with me anymore - he felt very guilty that I had always been more open with my emotions and feelings than he was, he was keeping me at arms length just like he does with everyone else, and he thought he would hurt me more if we had stayed together and continued dating (although we both said we had been very happy within the relationship!) and he wanted to work on it in other ways without being in a relationship.

I don't think this is a reason to break up - he could easily work on this while being together, which I pointed out. He just bluntly stated that no, this is the way it has to be, and reiterated I shouldn't wait for him, I deserved better. When I told him that him telling me that he could "absolutely see a future together" gives me false hope, he suddenly got very harsh on the phone and said "no we're done, this is it, there will never be anything romantic between us ever, get it out of your head". I called him out on it and asked him if he was trying to convince himself, help me move on, or if he actually believed that. Then he backpedaled and said he doesn't know what the future holds, he hopes we can be friends one day. I told him for now, I'm sorry, but I have to cut you out of my life, THAT is was helps me move on.

Mirror I can't make sense of this man! Just a week ago he said he could see a future with me, and told me if I ever needed him, he was here! What is his problem, exactly?

Gem50 said...

Hi Fire and Water, Would you like to hear another play-by-play story that probably belongs on Ms. Mirror's: Who Should Pay for a Date? ;-)

A few weeks ago I met a gf and her husband out for dinner. We went in separate cars. The parking lot was full and I found a parking space in farthest part of parking lot, squeezing my SUV between a big 'ole shiny new truck to my left and a little car to the right.

As I pulled in, I was crooked. I backed up to straighten and had to hit the brakes quick because I didn't see a car coming behind me (to tell the truth, I didn't look when I should have first). I was able to stop in plenty of time, no problem. When I turned my head to drive forward again, I noticed 3 men standing a couple cars to my right; I met glances with two who were chuckling at me and what they almost got to see (me backing up into a car for a crash). One of the men looked my age. When we met glances, I just shrugged, laughed it off and straightened the car in the spot.

Well, the guy my age comes walking behind my vehicle to the truck on my left -- which is a really nice truck by the way. I rolled down my window, asked him if he had enough room, he was kind and said he did, no problem. Then we chit-chatted a bit about the packed parking lot.

Then I see my friends park their car, and that is my cue to end this conversation. I say to the man, "Well, have a nice night," and he says.....

.... "It would be a nice night if you bought me dinner."

I was flabbergasted and at a loss for words. I don't remember what I said, but must have said something because he repeated it.

Now the surprise was gone and I got my bearings back. I chuckled, got out of my vehicle, said, "Good luck with that," and walked away. If he would have said, "It would be a good night if I could get your phone number," or, "It would be a good night if I could buy you a drink," then I would have invited him to join me and my friends and we could have had a fun couple of hours getting to know each other.

Instead, I walked away shaking my head wondering where the hell these men come from. The End. :)

chk61 said...

@Gem50: "It would be a nice night if you bought me dinner." Hilarious! Yet sad at the same time. Why on earth would a man our age think that was a good opener? (shaking head).

Oh yes, please sir. Can I buy you dinner, and provide shelter for you as well? Can I please support you, anything to have you in my presence!

It reminds me of the early days when I started dating the D.M. He had texted me over Christmas and then was away with his family, arriving back in town early January and emailed me if I'd like to get together Saturday night. This was our 3rd date and I had told him I had worked a performance on New Years Eve and was paid in cash. I'm not sure how that came up but it was relevant. Now mind you, on our first real date (we met online so the first meeting was in my mind, not a date per se) we went to dinner - after I declined a couch date - he used a coupon AND insisted I pay for half which was about $40. Because I was very attracted to him, I apparently decided to overlook this cheap behavior.

Prior to date #3 he emails me back: "So you're flush with cash, I guess that means you're treating"?

Yup. Unbelievable.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous May 16, at 7:02 PM,
"What is his problem, exactly?"

He's obviously not ready for a committed relationship, nor does it seem he wants to do the work he states needs done on himself while he's in one. And there's really nothing you can do about this, you can't change this for him. He's made things clear and now you have to do what's best for yourself. Don't worry about him, take care of yourself instead.

Fire&Water said...

Ha! That's a good one, Gem50! Guys are amazing, aren't they? ..And not always in a good way! One of my best girlfriends has a great word - she says guys are "bizarre".
Your story reminds me of earlier this year when a guy hit the back of my car at a red light. We exchanged numbers, insurance info the usual). I had a body shop look at the car and fortunately, the only damage was cosmetic, so I texted him that we'd just forget it happened. He replied that he felt really bad that this happened and worked around to inviting me to lunch (how does a guy go from hitting your car to hitting on you?) I am halfway between weirded out (I get some very strange date offers. A lot seem to involve cars lol..and I know that exact moment you described of being flabbergasted;)) and thinking he's a gentleman, so I tell him its a really kind thought, but its not necessary. His reply: "No problem. If you change your mind, you know where to find me." Riiiight..I'm going to chase you down for a lunch you were offering me because you supposedly felt bad that you *hit my car*! Is it any wonder that we women sit here saying "WTH" to ourselves? I always wonder if guys actually somehow think that kind of behavior makes a good impression or if they don't even realize that they're making an impression or what?

loretta said...

I'm still amazed at the Disappearing Man syndrome, but I think in my case it results from my refusing to chase a new prospect down and do all the leg work. I have had several DM in my life the past year, or at least guys who put in the very least amount of effort to maintain your attraction to them. These are not young men, they are in their late 40s, early 50s. I don't think they are educated in the PUA model, but I think they are bored, unambitious, spoiled by previous marriages (where their wives waited on them or ran the show), and they think I should do all the heavy lifting. When I don't, they seem petulant.

Current example: a guy I have had 3 great dates with. The first, he came up to my area of the city and we met for a light dinner late afternoon. Had a lot of laughs, chemistry, comfort level high. He dilly dallies for a couple weeks, finally makes firm plans (and I almost wrote him off because he was so scarce and hardly contacted me at all). Just before I was ready to delete him from my phone and email, he reappears and we meet for dinner. We had a great time. After that, he was a little more on the ball, made plans with me right away and got great seats to a ballgame. We went to the ballgame, had a great time, and then he barely touches base again. An occasional text. I delay my response. A phone call I let go to voicemail. A phone call I answer, and we talk for 2 hours (he was out of town at a hotel and we had a very interesting political and philosophical conversation); then the holiday weekend is in sight, and he doesn't make any plans with me. Meantime, I went sailing with my ex boyfriend (collaborator) and had a first and last date with a very bossy guy who was married for 30 years and treated me like a child. Uggh. Yuck. I let DM know I was busy Friday and Saturday but he does not book me for Sunday or Monday or anything. He sends a sentence text. I delay the response by 10 hours. LOL

He must expect me to chase him. What he hears? Crickets. I feel great about this even though it annoys the crap out of me. I am ready to tell him to go pound sand. And that will feel good, too. The fact that I'm really attracted to him just shows you I'm still drawn to d-bags, despite my wisdom and experience. I don't have to act on those toxic habits, and neither do you.

Anonymous said...

All these guys do this now... Its part of the "get her to chase you" tactics... They romance you and disappear, you can google or go to male seduction forums. Its very common these days. I don't know how many women have fallen for it but it has happened to me a lot as well. At some point I just don't respond, the last one disappeared for a month then tried to text his way back into my life (in his late 40s) I waited just as long to text back. He became aggressive with texts and telling me all his plans (waiting for me to invite myself along) I never did. He finally showed up at my front door one night (I let him up after he called me from the corner). We kissed passionately (this time I was playing him), he invited me out then I proceeded to call him out on everything (not going to bore you w the details) but I told him I had moved on because I thought he didn't like me. HE looked at me incredulously like he couldn't believe his tactic didn't work. He then asked me what I would do... I said I would move on. He couldn't believe it. Last time I saw him. Enough women need to do what we are doing. Unfortunately many young women fall for it all in the name of equal opportunity dating (reaching out when you haven't been contacted after dating) and the progressive culture that prompts men constantly running after the next new...

Anonymous said...

Hi mirror... So I realize this may be a lost cause and something I just need to let go of but wanted some advice. I was good friends with a guy for about 9 months before we started dating, we dated for s month before he moved overseas. We continued contact and daily chats that were pretty intense emotionally, as he put it. Then he disappeared for a month and I did not write. He came back wondering how I was doing and said he missed me, etc. but he also asked if I was with anyone and said he'd be happy for me if I was seeing someone. He also made it a point to say he wasn't seeing anyone there. I took this meaning we've gone from dating to "let's see", or at minimal "just friends".

Well I texted him a couple weeks after that convo just wishing him well and never heard from him. He returned to Facebook after a 2 month hiatus and announced he was back. A week later I said (publicly, so he wouldn't feel pressured to have a private convo if he was involved)- "glad you are back, we've missed you!". And nothing, no response and it's been a week.
I get people move on but really? I thought we had a strong friendship before we dated and he moved. Is he just an ass? Or should I give him the benefit of the doubt and realize he's just living his life?? I KNOW I didn't do anything wrong. But maybe this was supposed to be no contact and I broke it? I don't know where we stand. If he met someone, fine, but I'd like some closure. Do I even have a right to ask for that? Thanks...

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous May 30, 7:14 PM,
"I don't know where we stand. If he met someone, fine, but I'd like some closure. Do I even have a right to ask for that?"

You don't have to "hear" anything from him to receive the closure you seek - his ACTIONS are already providing that closure. Words are just a bunch of air, but actions - they speak loud and clear.

The fact that he disappeared for a month without warning, then asked if you were seeing anyone signals that he feels no commitment with regards to anything between you. And the friendship. . .I've just experienced this myself recently. Regardless of what people say or how many good intentions they have with regards to maintaining a friendship, the simple fact of the matter is that it takes two very emotionally mature individuals to maintain one after being involved. If one individual is unable to cope maturely, this friendship won't work. Games may be played, manipulation can take place and the truth will not be told in full (lies by omission may take place). And all of these things stand in the way of a friendship.

Additionally, this is now a long distance friendship and in truth - like I said previously, you'll never have the luxury of ever really knowing the "full" story about what he's up to, where his heads at, etc. and if you ask - that only gives the opportunity for the individual to lie (leave parts of the truth out), manipulate, etc. and you'll never be able to verify whether or not you're hearing the truth anyway.

You can be brutally honest with someone to show them that you respect them enough to do so, but in the end, that doesn't mean that the other individual is going to provide you with the same respect in return. If they're not emotionally mature and strong enough to do that for you - then you're going to be lied to. And if they're a tad selfish in that, they're lying to you so that they don't wreck their own situation with you (i.e. lose the ability to continue to string you along), you'll never change that about them.

Being brutally honest with someone requires you to be selfless and worry more about the other person than yourself and how the truth will affect the situation for you. And if one individual lacks that maturity and/or respect for you, they will simply leave bits of the truth out and take to manipulation instead in order to keep the situation going for themselves.

So in the end, like I said, "talking" about the situation doesn't mean you're going to get the truth or the closure you seek anyway. As a result, to me it's a pointless effort. Instead, listen to the ACTIONS of the individual if you really want the truth and you will receive the closure you seek.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Mirror- good advice. I wish more men would just step up and say “hey, we had a good time but our situation just isn’t going to work out”… just be blunt and honest. when people do what this disappearer did, its cowardly to me! like, what threat am I to you? im a thousand miles away and you STILL cant muster up a line for me that I am worthy of, that I believe WE were worthy of. We had something good, no one did anything wrong (was a matter of distance that I think let us drift apart)- so why silence? THE time NO ONE did anything wrong, and I get silence! LOL!! ive been treated BETTER by men I didn’t know half as long or as well…

This is affecting me more than even longer standing relationships I had because I deserve more respect than that and I don’t understand how someone who used to be so close cant see that!! that is what hurts most but you are right, cant change them or force them. thanks for your help

chk61 said...

@Anonymous June 1, 2015 at 8:43AM:

I am sorry to hear what you are going through and I agree, if everyone communicated it would make this dating thing easier! I think you said you dated for a month, there is an "s" which is close to the "a" on the keyboard - at first I thought it meant 5 months, but I think it means ONE month. My hunch after reading your story is that your "friend" did not feel a need to define or continue the relationship as it was clear he was leaving, and moving far away.

Also, I am curious as to if you knew well in advance that he was moving overseas before you got involved and became more than "friends", and if you had any conversation about the status of your budding relationship before he moved. I am wondering if HE assumed your relationship would not be progressing based on the fact that he was moving overseas. Having tried long distance relationships in my life, I know that they do not work long-term unless one person eventually moves to be with the other person.

You wrote: "I don't know where we stand" but you must have known that a move across an ocean would possibly affect the outcome of the relationship....if indeed you were looking for a serious, long-term committed relationship with HIM. Obviously I don't know all the facts - just going off what you wrote.

If things were very casual, and off he went, and everything was light and friendly, there was "no pressure" and no serious conversation occurred prior to the move, then I think it is important to look at your own participation and responsibility in what happened. This is difficult, but I think necessary for growth for us women.

If you had a conversation like "well, we were friends and now for the past month, we're more than friends but one of is moving overseas and this is surely going to change the dynamic of what is happening" and you both agreed BEFORE he left that you would try to continue the relationship, and would be visiting each other on a semi-frequent basis, then his silence is disrespectful and more unforgivable.

I am not trying to be hard on you, but just thinking back on my own life and the times I got my feelings terribly hurt by not fully realizing and accepting the risk I was taking by getting involved with a man who was not available, in one way or another.

As far as a friendship, if you want one with him, then I think it is possible if you can truly look at what happened and acknowledge your own participation in the outcome. It does not sound like there was a commitment talk before he moved, so to expect him to initiate such a conversation after a move overseas would seem like a stretch. I agree with Mirror that it is not necessary to get closure from him, and a hard look at his actions is all the closure you need.

I truly wish you the best in your healing.

Anonymous said...

yes it was a month of actual dating, but quite a while of a "budding" friendship before that (you know the type, casual but more and more attracted friends!). he got called to go over seas about 3 weeks into our dating. in these very initial stages, we were saying how great this felt, being friends first- how passionate everything still was but we had a good foundation of a friendship, etc etc. sounds like that was all crap now on his part. or his priorities changed, which sounds more legit. and nicer :)
perhaps my head was more in the clouds than his was, and he was able to be more realistic about things and let go.. where i was more willing to try long distance, maybe it wasnt truly in his heart. i believe in trying things you feel strongly about/ for. and he said we'll continue to date unless he sees he wont be coming back soon (job is unpredictable, not sure of time frame). but to disappear and not acknowledge me now hurts, like it didnt really mean that much. it wasnt just one month of dating, it was almost a year of grwoing closer. maybe he doesnt see it that way.... i just have to accept that i guess....

chk61 said...

@Anonymous June 1, 2015;

OK, I get it...there was not a lot of warning and you did not know much ahead of time that he was going to be called to go overseas.. Totally different situation. Sorry, I realized I sounded a bit preachy (what the heck was in my coffee this morning?) so I apologize for that. And yeah, his behavior does sound hurtful - especially after a year of knowing each other. Your disappointment is certainly understandable.

You may hear from him at some point eventually....in the meantime, hang in there and time will take care of this also!

Anonymous said...

@anonymous @ June 1, 2015 at 1:45

I understand where you are coming from. You trusted him, and he betrayed that trust. The same thing happened to me, and it does hurt more than my other longer standing relationships ending. I hope you can find the strength to somehow move past this. You did nothing wrong.

Anonymous said...

Hi Mirror, please tell me if i have the right to be upset. I just found out that my bf had fwb with someone he claimed he only had a one night stand with. He told me abt his one night stand earlier on in the relationship because i asked him. Today i asked him abt fwb and he told me he slept with her 2 times. I told him i'm upset because he told me he only slept with her once and that she set him up with wine and stuff and they didn't talk after that and she moved away. I told him that i'm upset because he wasn't honest. He sees it that he's being honest now and that he didn't want to go into detail. What do you think i should do? I don't even want to see him or talk to him. I know it's his past but i'm just really upset that he didn't tell me that when we were talking abt it and he kept saying that it was a booby trap. Please advise. Thank you!

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Jun 2, 2:46 PM,
"tell me if i have the right to be upset"

Well, he's created a very "sticky" situation for himself. Because the fact that he slept with her once, twice, or a 100 times before he met you really isn't important. But what IS important is his WILLINGNESS or lack of it to be honest with you, show you respect and take you seriously as a girlfriend.

Once two people willingly enter into a committed relationship, part of the WORK required is honesty. Telling the truth can be hard, but if you've committed to someone, part of that commitment includes being honest and telling the truth. At that point, you can't just pick and choose what you're going to admit to and what you're going to leave out. When you start leaving bits of the truth out, that becomes a "lie by omission."

And we all know how important trust is in relationships.

"he kept saying that it was a booby trap"

That's -- funny. Seriously? Telling the truth is a trap? Telling the truth requires you to be a mature adult. Mature enough to show your significant other the respect they deserve.

If he isn't ready to do that, and he considers having to tell the truth as being placed in a trap -- then he's not ready for a committed relationship. Because committed relationships require hard work. . .like telling the truth, being honest, showing someone respect, taking them seriously, thinking about them more than yourself at times if need be. . .those are skillsets that he may not have, and that are necessary for a committed relationship.

No one feels good being lied to. No one feels good being around a liar. No one feels good being around someone who's telling half truths. And your partner is supposed to make you feel good, not bad, worried or anxious.

"he told me he only slept with her once and that she set him up with wine and stuff"

Oh i see. . .so he was actually a "victim" of hers. He was "victimized" and coerced into sex LOL.

That sounds like a man who is not willing to take responsibility for his own actions or be accountable for them after the fact.

"I don't even want to see him or talk to him."

I understand this. I understand how hard it is to feel the same about someone who has lied to you or manipulated you. And while some people and some couples can work through these things - there are also those that simply cannot because their feelings have changed drastically once they realize they've been lied to, and could possibly be lied to even more in the future if they decide to stay.

I'd suggest that you go with your gut here and acknowledge the way you're feeling right now and worry about taking care of yourself. If this means placing him on the back burner for a while and taking a break from the relationship - or calling it quits for good, then so be it.

You need time to work through the emotions he's created for you to deal with and if you attempt to jump right back into this without having done so. . .you're going to harbor resentment towards him and it will affect the relationship negatively.

If you're able to work through this in a few weeks or months time, and you feel you can trust him again, then you can always attempt a second go-round. If you take that time however, and you find that your feelings haven't changed, then it is what it is and at that point, it's best to acknowledge your feelings and the fact that the relationship was stunted by the lack of honesty, and leave things be without a second go-round.

Let your feelings guide you - not him. Don't try to push them down - acknowledge them, they're valid. Feel them, and see if you can work through them. If not, then listen to them and act accordingly.

Anonymous said...

Hi Mirror,

Thank you so much for your advice! I talked to him last night and he told me he's really upset that I turn something small into a big deal. He hates it when people do that and he feels like he didn't do anything wrong on his end. He felt like he didn't have to disclose everything that he was not proud of and that he actually felt like the girl set him up the first time. I explained to him the fact that he wasn't honest with me when I asked him that got me upset. He thinks that him being honest with his fwb actually gets me upset. So now we are both not talking to each other. I guess I will take this time to think through about this situation. I somewhat feel bad for making it a big deal and that he's upset but at the same time I can't go pass how he was not honest with me in the beginning. So after our talk, I think i'm more upset that he thinks this is nothing and I'm making a big deal of his past.

Anonymous said...

Hi Mirror,

I already apologize for this length!
I recently moved and ended up reconnecting with a friend from HS (we are in our mid-20s now). We hung out the first time and had drinks at a bar, then went back to his place for wine. We caught up, and he told me about his past experiences, his exes, he even made me help him make his bed! And said it was teamwork LOL. i left pretty late and he wanted me to chill even longer, but i had to go to work the next day - i think he was having a great time with me. He even told me that he feels like hes really made it and that the door is always open. Both things I thought were sweet, and i politely said thank you. The attraction was still strongly there! He walked me to my car and said that he wanted to hang out soon.

A week passed and i was impatiently wanting to see him, so i had texted him how are you and we should hang out again. We chatted for a bit and at the end he said yes to hanging out! the next day, he messaged me and he was like are you free later. and i said i can be, what did you have in mind. and he said that he didnt have anything in mind but that hes looking at his sched and it may be a week min if we dont hang out tonight. playfully asked me to plan this one. Since im new to the area i said lets go for dinner and drinks, but you need to pick the place. Had a great time eating, catching up, reminiscing. I had even asked him why we never hung out more in HS and hes like "im glad were hanging out now". We chatted more about dating etc, and he said his mindset is that hes having fun and if something comes along, and thats mine too. When we went to the bar it got touchy feely, he even tried to tickle me, to which i took his hands and playfully said no. He just stared at me, he seemed so elated, I even got him to verbally admit that he having a good time with me. We then walked home arm in arm and we joked and chatted. I was telling him about some of the LGBT couples that are successful (since we got onto that subject) and he was all "oh i do that too!" He said for the next 4 weekends he was out of town, but we could hang out during the week. So at the end of the night i jokingly told him "see you in a month" when i hugged him. and he said it will be less than a month!

I didnt really hear from him, which is okay cause i was doing my own work and meeting ppl here. I was thinking about him though. a couple weeks later, i saw this funny meme that reminded me of him and sent it to him and we chatted. Now a couple weeks after that, i wasnt sure if he was back but i sent him a text saying when hes back, that we should chill again and to let me know when hes free. My problem is that he waited 8 hours to reply (most of the time it would only be a couple and then we would chat), and he said "haha im back!" and i got a bit irritated. It took him forever to reply and nothing got answered. i txted him back like 2.5hrs later and was like, welcome back! can't wait to hear all about it, but im out right now so msg me later.
Needless to say its a few days later and i never heard back. My dilemna is that hes flirty, touchy feely and there's a strong attraction/ connection. He admitted to me that it doesn't feel like so many years have passed, and its hard to update me cause he feels like i know everything. and that he feels really comfortable around me. I'm not sure if I should be handling this like a friend or do the NC for 30 days because it feels more than platonic...
- Cat

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Cat,
"he even made me help him make his bed! And said it was teamwork"

That's ridiculous - a man only gets to refer to teamwork when he's actually COMMITTED to being part of a team - a relationship. If you're not in a relationship with a man - he has no business asking you to make his bed.

"We hung out the first time and had drinks at a bar, then went back to his place for wine"

I'm not an advocate of going to a man's home early in the relationship, because those situations tend to turn into booty calls and/or friends with benefit situations:

http://www.aphroditeastrology.com/2014/04/new-dating-trend-sofa-date-hookup.html

"i was impatiently wanting to see him, so i had texted him how are you and we should hang out again. We chatted for a bit and at the end he said yes to hanging out!"

When a woman is the one initiating contact with a man, it tends to lead to confusion about where she stands with him. Because the only way a woman can know whether or not a man is truly interested (versus just taking her up on her offer) is to see if her pursues her:

http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/09/dont-initiate-contact.html

"I'm not sure if I should be handling this like a friend or do the NC for 30 days because it feels more than platonic"

My suggestion would be to do neither of those two things. Instead, I'd suggest that you cease contacting him and see if he contacts you and asks you out. Because again, the only way a woman can know whether or not a man is interested in her - is to see if HE pursues HER. If he does, then you continue to let him do so. If he doesn't, then you have your answer.

Because when a woman is the one initiating, again, this tends to only lead to confusion for her about where she stands with the man, wondering if he's really interested. So it's important to let the man take the masculine role (initiator, leader) and for the woman to embrace the feminine role (submissive).

Man leads, woman submits (if she chooses to do so) - when things take place like that, the woman is no longer confused about whether or not the man is interested because his actions of taking the lead signal to her that he is :-)

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@The Ladies,
I've said it time and again - LISTEN TO YOUR GUT, follow your intuition.

This piece here has some interesting facts about intuition:

http://pandawhale.com/post/62941/the-science-of-intuition

"The enteric brain in our guts is a major sensate organ that is connected directly to our nervous system and produces most of our non-language based awareness through the vagus nervous system, driving up to 90% of our ongoing understanding of our environment into our head by ... wait for it... fully articulated gut feelings.

More needs to be studied here but first we need to go back to original assumptions and change our point of view while we cease trying to rationalize that everything comes out of our heads. Being big-brain centric is simply physically and neurologically inaccurate."

Women have a tendency to give the benefit of doubt to men when dating and in essence what you're doing when you ignore your gut and your intuition is you are "trying to rationalize that everything comes out of our heads."

When you give the benefit of doubt, you are basically rationalizing reasons for the man's behavior that nine times out of ten - are completely incorrect.

"Technically known as the enteric nervous system, the second brain consists of sheaths of neurons embedded in the walls of the long tube of our gut, or alimentary canal, which measures about nine meters end to end from the esophagus to the anus. The second brain contains some 100 million neurons, more than in either the spinal cord or the peripheral nervous system, Gershon says."

". . .at bottom intuition is about the brain’s ability to pick up on certain recurring patterns; the more we are exposed to a particular domain of activity the more familiar we become with the relevant patterns (medical charts, positions of chess pieces), and the more and faster our brains generate heuristic solutions to the problem we happen to be facing within that domain."

Lesson there? Learn from your mistakes. Acknowledge them, acknowledge the situation for what it is, and if you see the same patterns occurring - don't overlook them, don't dismiss them, and don't rationalize them away by providing the luxury of the benefit of doubt - because what you are sensing is REAL.

And I like to look at it as Mother Natures gift - a built in "warning" system to keep us out of danger.

When those alarm bells start ringing ladies, ignore the man in your life who's attempting to make you think you're crazy and just over-reacting and instead - listen to your gut. . .it very rarely, if ever, steers you wrong ;-)

Anonymous said...

Hi MOA. My DM sent me yet another evite to a baseball game get together. Of course I will not open it. I have been ignoring him for two months now because I think his contacts are lame (evite to a party of his and then he also asked for my mailing address to mail me an invitation). It just really makes me upset that this is the way he treats me. We dated on and off for four years and he treats me just like everyone else and that is the reason I will ignore it and not accept it. What are your thoughts? On a positive note, I did meet a guy on Tinder. We had a nice dinner date and he called today to follow up for another date this weekend. He even picked up the phone and called me, which is something the DM has yet to do. Thank you also for providing links to other suggested readings. It really is helpful what you do for all of us :)

Anonymous said...

Hii Mirror..

So i had this guy romance me from Jan this year. At first I was not interested, he is not the type I usually like. But he kept on trying, texts, calls, hed come see me whenever he could. He made all the effort. He also lived with his parents until 2months ago when he got a promotion and was moved to another city. He invited me over, as he now had his own house. After 1 month of pleading. I agreed and spent 7days with him... We had fun, and I assumed we were on the same page in terms of our future together. We talked about alot of things, made futuristic plans..
So I come back home, and after 2days of communications, he goes quiet. He doesnt pickup calls or respond to texts. I had left some of my stuff over, I asked him to pack them up and deliver them to a friend, he did not reply but sent his friend to drop my luggage.

He was so persistant with me, so gentle..I really want to know what I did to change his mind on us..
This has never happened to me before...
I do not text him nor call him. But I still would love to know..

chk61 said...

Wonder of wonders! Wonders never cease.

Ladies, remember the D.M. I moaned about endlessly on this site? The one who brought me soooo much joy? The one who made me feel appreciated, cared for and worthy? Yeah, *that* one.

Today is my birthday. Our last communication was at the end of November, 2014.

He must have one of those birthday reminders on his computer because I got a Happy Birthday!!! email greeting from him this morning. And a note that said "how've you been?" and one more short sentence alluding to a personal project he helped me on.

Yup, six months later. They do reappear. Mirror is right!

I'm still seeing new guy. It's been two months. As long as I live in the present and don't worry about the future, it's nice. But...there are buts. Big buts. I'm trying not to worry but worry seems to be my middle name. The good news is: new guy is attentive, caring, almost doting, and communicative. VERY. He's funny and smart. We are going out to dinner for my birthday. The bad news is: I don't like him spending money on me - because he doesn't have ANY!

The other "buts" I won't go into...

It's alllllways somethin', as Gilda Radner used to say. Anyway, I hope everyone is doing well!

The D.M. has reappeared - alert the media! ;-)

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

IT'S A BIGFOOT SIGHTING LADIES!! LOL ;-)

Fire&Water said...

@chk61 - that's amazing!! Even though there are so many Bigfoot reappearance stories here, it's always fun to hear about one more and find out how long it took :)
Also, even though there are "buts" in your new relationship, I hope you are able to enjoy the attention and finding your life made deeper and happier by the time spent with a gentleman. I've been seeing the pieces of your story as I go through the original Disappearing Man thread and I know you had a lot of ups and downs - like we all do - so I'm so happy to hear that this experience is a much more positive one for you. It's wonderful to know your work and strength has brought something good into your life. And best wishes for wherever the path takes you!

Anonymous said...

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to stop by today to talk to you ladies. I too have a bigfoot story to report.

D.M. not only contacted me today - he also contacted me last week. He wants to know why I am ignoring him.

Let me start with last week.

Last week Friday, after attempting to call me several times, he discovered that I blocked his number.

Yes, I added his number to my Auto-reject list. I wanted to give myself some time to heal and not see his number on my caller ID. Made the decision to do it after he phoned me a few times one night (in January) and I phoned him back - only for him to not pick up. I did not hear back from him after that. That was somewhat of a setback for me, so I decided to block his number for my own peace of mind for a while. What kind of makes me feel like blocking him has been somewhat counterproductive though, is that when you add a number to the reject list on my phone, it still registers in the Call Logs…so I can still see when he has called - the phone just does not ring.

So last Friday, after calling me a few times in the day without success (blocked), in the night he tried calling me again from his phone and then from a private number. The calls were a minute apart; so it was obviously a test. After realizing that the calls from the private number went through, he texted me. In the first text he said that he was trying to reach me but it keeps cutting off. Then came, “I see you have blocked my number ok” and the final text, “I understand”.

I did not respond.

Something weird happened the next day. Saturday evening, I saw him. I have not seen him in over a year...so what are the odds that after he calls and texts me and discovers that he has been blocked, I see him the day AFTER? On the way home, I spotted his car pulling out of his workplace, to be let through onto the main road where my mom and I were driving (literally passed his car). Honestly...I don't know if he saw me or not. I did not look in his direction long enough. I just saw his car and then diverted my attention elsewhere.

Anonymous said...

(pt. 2)

After the whole ordeal last weekend, I started thinking about his text. He 'understands' - what exactly does he understand? I do not know -- because today he called me again and text me asking why he is being ignored and said that if I want him to stop calling my number I should let him know.

I thought that when he said he understands last week, he started reflecting on the way he has treated me…but after reading his text today, I see that he still does not 'get it'.

Ladies, it has been a struggle for me to stay silent. We never had a breakup convo and I NEVER told him why I cut him off (he disappeared for 3 months, cheated and chose to not admit it when I asked, among other issues). After finding Mirror’s site and understanding how these D.M.'s are, I decided that when he circled back around and returned I would not even bother to engage him in battle (as you would say Mirror) or explain how his behavior made me feel. When he reappeared 3 months later (Christmas day), in my own mind, we were already broken up and I had nothing more to say.

This is not the first reappearance from him since Christmas, but his texts today really made me feel like, he is never going to 'get it'. He has made several attempts to contact me, but none of them have been an apology or asking me to have a talk. It's more along the lines of telling me he has been trying to reach me and asking me what he has done or why he is being ignored. I have never picked up any of his phone calls to hear what he has to say, but I feel as though it would be just more of the same.

I have been silent since December, and a part of me wants send him a text to say to him that before hearing from him on Christmas day last year, we had not spoken for 3 months so what more is there left to say? Once I get that out, I feel that will be the end for me and even if he still attempts to contact me after that, I have justified what I am doing and he will know.

I have a pretty good idea of what you ladies might say. Sending a text will just backtrack my progress and reopen old wounds. What a journey NC is - but what if you feel a little bit of underlying guilt?

Still reading the article posts here and drawing strength and wisdom from you all. Still reading and still learning.

-Writing From Jamaica

chk61 said...

Thanks Fire&Water. It is amazing that it took me until age 54 to find a man who adores me and isn't afraid of telling me he is crazy about me. He's great in so many ways. Big sigh. While I am enjoying his company as well as feeling desired and appreciated, now at 2 months since we met, I am the one putting the brakes on. He wants to spend every possible minute with me, while I feel the need to carve out more time for myself, and I have told him I cannot be suddenly "attached at the hip". He came over dressed up, with flowers, 3 birthday cards and a nice gift that cost too much. He is gentlemanly and opens the car door (his father's car) for me, holds my arm crossing the street, really knows how to treat a woman. And because I know his life story and circumstances, dinner would have been enough. I want him to return the gift because he cannot afford it but I haven't told him that.

He senses it and told me the other night that I need to tell him if this is how I am feeling. I wish at this point I felt solid enough to really just fall for him, but my priorities are different now. The "buts" feel significant, and the details are not just related to his career (or lack thereof). I know no one is perfect but if I am still having doubts, this gives me pause. He wants me to meet his dad tomorrow at a luncheon. I had made other plans (my dear old dad passed 20 years ago, actually I was born on father's day). I think if I really felt solid, and ready to make my future with him, that I'd be thrilled to meet his parent but I am feeling very hesitant and thinking I won't go.

Sigh. I think I need to have a talk with him. I've been upfront about these issues since the beginning so I don't feel I've led him down a primrose path. I've held back and he knows it.

It's funny because a month after we met I came across this, and it seemed to be a message:
"You chose your dreams for the journeys they'd make possible, and you knew when you chose them there'd be obstacles, crises, and young souls who'd stand in your way. They exist by design. To tempt you, lure you, test you. So that you can come back, prevail, rise above, and rock on. And ultimately to convince you of your awesomeness. They're part of the plan. There've been no mistakes. All is supremely well.

These are the days mid-adventure, that will mean the most to you.

Enjoy the journey,
The Universe

And some of those young souls will forever remember the gift of your paths crossing."

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@chk61,
I understand where you're coming from, this is all moving fast for you and you're feeling a tad bit out of your element, on unfamiliar ground, and it's overwhelming you and causing a "fight or flight" survival response, which is completely normal.

So all I will say is this. . .explore the journey thoroughly. It's yours to enjoy, it's yours to learn from. Don't rob yourself of any of the experiences it has to offer. Fully embrace those experiences so that when it comes time to make a decision, you're armed with all the information you need to do so, and you can base your decision on those facts - instead of your fears, worries and concerns.

The universe may be testing you right now, as you've noted. It wants to know - are you really ready for that which you wish for? Are you really ready to take risks for love? Are you really ready to share your life with someone? And are you really ready to do the work necessary to see your wishes come true?

Your comfort zone keeps you comfortable. It keeps you within the confines of what's familiar to you. . .more of the same. If you really want something different from life. . .you've got to be willing to step outside your comfort zone. . .where the magic happens.

You don't have to commit to it - you just have to be willing to explore it ;-)

Anonymous said...

@chk61
I understand you very well. I am single without children and although I genuinely long for a good man who will love me I am rather reluctant to very close ties. Maybe it´s me, my freedom loving character or maybe it´s due to my life experience - the fact is I am not an easy woman to settle down withLOL. (Yes, I know I have been complaining here about men whilst I am not perfect myself). So in my opinion your feelings are absolutely okay. And as I don´t know the man maybe I will be totally wrong but isn´t he forwarding things to make you happy? He is about your age, has his own experience with women and perhaps he is doing what he felt other women always expected of him in the past. I think the best thing is to be as authentic as possible and let him know that the pace is too high for you (which you actually did) and now it is his turn to respond to that. What is important - don´t feel guilty about how you are feeling because you have the right to feel the way you do and maybe, as I say, he will be relieved to feel free to slow down a bit, who knows? In any case, best luck to you both:-). And best wishes to Mirror and everybody here:-),
Hopeful

loretta said...

@chk61 - I have a similar experience, but in its infancy, as you. We are the same age range, as well. I met a guy recently who at first seemed really cool. He's attractive, attentive, funny, employed with a decent job (after a period of not having one), and was very, very smitten with me right away. However, he came on so strong, and he started to smother me right away. This was such a stark contrast from the "DM" I had been seeing and of course, Casual Guy, who was very negligent and gave me all sorts of mixed messages.

This guy? Making plans with me weeks in advance, talking like I was his girlfriend already. Referring to me as his girlfriend. And we had met less than a week ago.

When on our 3rd date in a week (really rare for me), he made me dinner at his house. He pulled out all the stops, but it was a big turn off instead of a turn on. I would have preferred we sit in a little cheap restaurant and talk. Instead, he ran all over, doing this grill thing, while I sat on the porch with his landlord who owns the double he lives in, and his landlord was a drunk and a miserable sap. I had to sit there for an hour, listening to this guy badmouth everything. Finally when the food was ready, we went upstairs to his part of the house and it looked like a 25 yr old kid right out of college would live in. I'm not miss materialistic by any stretch, but it was a big red flag. That, and subsequent stories of how his marriage broke up. It was so much drama. I don't know why he brought it up. I think there was a part of him that wanted me to know all this right away so I could run. It was self-sabotage. Why? I could have managed the over enthusiastic smothering thing pretty well, just set my boundaries, but that living arrangement was definitely not my cup of tea, and I could not see myself spending time there. I'm disappointed, but I'm glad I found out early that there was no future in it. I did the big FADE like men do (ha, serves them right), and have not responded to him since then. He gave up quickly. I think he knew all along that I wasn't going to go for it.

chk61 said...

Thanks Mirror...that was helpful. After a mini-nervous breakdown I did agree to meet his father and sister for a father's day lunch. I made it clear to him that the only way I could do this at the two month mark was with the agreement that it did not mean anything, that he wasn't presenting me as his future wife, etc. He was OK with this and we had a nice time, although I did feel like I was going to pass out at certain points. It was a warm and humid day, the AC wasn't working that well in the restaurant and my state of mind did not help matters. ;-)

@Hopeful: thanks for your thoughts. He has asked me if I have ever had a boyfriend like him and I have to be honest, the answer is no. He is probably more concerned with my feelings and comfort than any other guy I've been with! He has told me that what we have is rare, especially at this stage of life. He's not pushy about it, but firm and very, very open with his feelings. He is a true romantic and incredibly willing to be vulnerable and put himself on the line. No wonder he's a basket case in other ways. ;-)

@Loretta: my new guy's living arrangements would certainly make you run. I don't feel smothered but he has made it clear what he wants. I have expressed my fears to him. His kind, gentle, giving nature, his sense of humor and talent keep me hanging on. My place isn't great shakes either, but I've always lived way beneath my means as my goals are early retirement, not being enslaved to a corporate job until my body falls apart, as sadly no big inheritance is coming my way. ;-) So far my frugality has paid off but I think I've found someone who needs a sugar momma. :-( One of my hopes and dreams was to find a partner that i could rely on, to build a home and future together. He can definitely provide emotional and physical comfort but I don't feel I can depend on him financially nor do I feel I can build a more comfortable home with him.

I just wish I didn't have to be the "heavy" as far as the nuts and bolts of life are concerned (money, shelter, etc). I never, ever wanted that role and frankly, I still don't. This is the problem. He still thinks he can make a comeback in his field and re-establish himself, and make a lot of money. I like his attitude but truthfully, I think it is a long shot. :-(

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@chk61,
"I just wish I didn't have to be the "heavy" as far as the nuts and bolts of life are concerned (money, shelter, etc). I never, ever wanted that role and frankly, I still don't."

I get what you're saying there and I'm at the same exact stage in my life as well. Don't get me wrong, I'm not seeking a man to hand me these things - I've already established them for myself, so that "need" doesn't exist.

The problem I encounter with this is that if you're the only established one, then this kinda' puts you into the lead role in a sense (the masculine role). And as much as I like my independence, I do wish for an equal - a man that I trust to lead me, so I can follow that lead. Someone who has already established themselves already as well, and has already done the hard work to earn these things for themselves, and has learned the value of the discipline necessary to maintain them.

And for that - the reality is that you ultimately end up needing an equal.

Because what I've found in the past is that when it's me who is the only established partner in the relationship, the other individual cannot relate to what I'm going through at times trying to maintain it all, what I've sacrificed (and still have to sacrifice daily) in order to maintain it all, the time involved, the urgency involved, the importance involved, etc. Because if someone just shows up, parks their butt on your sofa, and has never had to go through those experiences - they can't relate and you find yourself at odds over these things ultimately.

Then when it comes time to address a matter with the home, property or finances - when it comes time to set aside "fun time" and instead be forced to focus on urgent matters at hand necessary to maintain the home, property, finances, etc. - they simply cannot relate to the stress, they cannot relate to the need to set aside "fun time" and instead be responsible instead, they cannot relate to the fact that being disciplined is actually a skill that you have to acquire over time, etc.

So in the past, I've found myself actually being the responsible party in the relationship - while my significant other has been whining like a child about why I'm doing something responsible instead of wasting 5 hours of my day on something else, pressuring me to be less responsible and more spontaneous (guy code for "aimlessly fly by the seat of your pants"), and making me feel GUILTY for actually being responsible.

And THAT - I simply cannot stand.

I don't want to mother someone. And what happens with me is, I start to view them as the child energy, and myself as the responsible "parent" type energy. . .and then it's just done for me after that. I can't proceed under those circumstances. Because I'm seeking an equal who can relate, lend support and encouragement, and exhibit patience, acceptance and understanding. But what I've ended up with is someone who can't relate, someone who attempts to tear me from my responsibilities, someone who only ends up applying more unwanted pressure on me by hounding me about these things, and someone who makes me feel guilty for choosing to be responsible and self-disciplined about my lifestyle.

The "parent/child" role does not work for me at all.

And it has nothing to do with money. In my case, it usually ends up simply a matter of being at different stages in life - with conflicting priorities, focus, mindset and maturity levels. Because unless they've been there, done that - they are unable to fully relate. And that's where an equal in life can eliviate some of this.

But don't get me wrong, to each his own. I know a lot of couples where this actually works for them, and doesn't prove troublesome.

Anonymous said...

Mirror and Ladies,
I know I should probably post somewhere else, I apologize, I always write here. After a break I have put a new ad on the dating site. I tried to be as honest and authentic in stating my requirements as possible. Apart from other things I stated I am looking for a man who has a sense of fair play. Guess how many answers I have received? Two. The lowest number so far. One of the men sounded quite nice and responsible, so we started communicating. We have had one phone conversation and it went unusually fine. In this very first conversation he suggested going for a cycling trip (he knows it´s my hobby). I agreed to a future date. I thought he would call me again. In the meantime he sent me several e-mails to which I didn´t respond because I didn´t know about them (I haven´t checked my mailbox - I thought he would phone). So he wrote another e-mail saying something along the lines of: "Didn´t you recieve my e-mail? Did I offend you in any way? If so, I didn´t mean it. Write please. Please write". And this has happened twice in a short time span. Mirror, please, do you sense anything odd? On the phone he sounded fine, my mood improved when I hung up and I started to look forward to meeting him. However, these e-mails sound a bit strange, so pathetic. I got suspicious after reading them. And they are useless because he knows that I am willing to meet him. And he didn´t ask for my photo. I didn´t ask for his either because I didn´t want to scare him off but I think I probably should have. I will appreciate your gut feelings as you are always right. And you might have experience with this type of man. For me it´s an uncharted territory. Thank you very much, any idea will be helpful.
Hopeful

Anonymous said...

Hi Mirror!


Thanks for the great articles! I was just reading your other article on disappearing men and I have a quick question.


I've been dating this guy and we are fairly fresh...been dating for a couple of months, been on several dates, slept with each other a couple of times and concerning long distance communication - its been texting. He's been fairly manipulative over the texting because somehow I KNOW phone calls are not on (yet at least) and with the texting its been him texting me every few days but when I initiate contact sometimes he'll get back to me the next day rather than become available when I make the move and text. Over the last week or so his texting became more committed and he had started texting me on a daily basis and making live conversation by sometimes exchanging dozens of texts over an hour or more with instant responses from both parts. So it IS starting to feel like a relationship.


BUT yesterday evening I made the move to send him a text with a link to an article to read based on a previous conversation we'd had and he opened the messages but hasn't responded yet and that was last night. Ok maybe he was out with friends and thought 'I'll read it tomorrow when I can make conversation about it' but in my text I also asked 'how are you' and he could have at least said hi and told me he'll get back to me tomorrow.


My question related to your article is 'what do we do about men that don't necessarily disappear for weeks but do what he's doing?'. I also read about the mirroring tactic - should I do that? I was also thinking that if he responds today maybe I should not reply at all rather than reply 24 hours later and just see if he pursues? Just to show him that ignoring me is not on? Because this has happened before Mirror and he never gives an excuse as if to say that I have no right to demand an explanation.


Thanks!


Laura

Anonymous said...

Hello MOA, hope all is well with you, I am basically just living on this site now LOL, just want to let you know how much we all appreciate what you are doing here, droppin pearls of wisdom on us ladies, and making us realise how much worth we carry as women, you're so appreciated xx

I need some more pearls of wisdom dropped on me though please MOA. Yesterday as I was spending time with and chatting with my lovely grandma, the subject of men came up (she wants to know why I am 22 yrs old with no man, she wants to see me gettin married etc all that jazz LOL)....so nana basically said to me: "Maria NEVER keep all your eggs in one basket when it comes to men".....now I hear this line quite often MOA and was wondering if you could break down it's meaning for me??

What exactly does this phrase mean?....is it basically serial dating?

Why does everyone say that not keeping all your eggs in one basket is the best way to go about dating?

And MOA the most important question for me: If I was to date several men at the same time and I meet one whom I really like, do I tell him I am gettin to know other men?

Or do I not tell him this but instead just let this fact exude from my actions?

QUESTIONS QUESTIONS QUESTIONS :D

Please let me know all about this "don't keep all ur eggs in one basket" phenomenon MOA.... love

#LondonBabe xxx

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@LondonBabe,
"nana basically said to me: "Maria NEVER keep all your eggs in one basket when it comes to men".....now I hear this line quite often MOA and was wondering if you could break down it's meaning for me?"

I agree with Nana - 100%. And your Nana knows a fact that many modern women have a hard time accepting nowadays which is that, generally speaking, the male mind views dating as a numbers game. And that's why THEY generally do not put all their eggs in one WOMAN'S basket, and it's the sole reason that women should not do that either. . .and your Nana has lived long enough to understand this as truth.

Look at it this way. Say you go into the chicken coop, you have only 10 chickens, you get 10 eggs, you have 5 people to feed. You put all your eggs into one basket and you head back to the house, trip on a rock - and drop that basket.

Now you have no eggs and no one gets fed.

Had you taken two baskets with you, placed 5 eggs into one and then 5 into another, headed to the house with the first one and dropped it - you'd still have another basket waiting back in the chicken coop with 5 eggs in it, and everyone would've still gotten to eat that morning.

In the first scenario you took a risk and put all your eggs into one basket and ended up going hungry as a result. In the second scenario, you planned a bit better, took some precautions, and everyone still got to eat.

Dating is very similar. When you're only casually dating (no sex) one man at a time and you forego all other opportunities because you're convinced this one man has a lot of potential - if this man walks away from you, meets someone else, or doesn't feel the same. . .you've got nothing to fall back on. You're left starting from scratch at square one.

However, if you casually date more than one man at a time and one of them decides this won't work or he doesn't feel the same and he walks away - no worries. You don't skip a beat, and you simply focus your energy on the men in your life that are still dating you.

And whether women like this or not - this is generally how men date.

They casually date and speak to more than one woman at a time (their "rotation") and if one situation doesn't work, they simply keep moving forward with the remaining women until they develop stronger feelings for one of them over the others, eventually spending more time with her than the others, and eventually speaking to the others less and less until before you know it - they're in love and they've found themselves in a committed relationship.

Men generally don't go ripping full steam ahead into committed situation with one woman at a time moving at the speed of light. They realize there's a chance things might not work so they spend a good deal of time casually dating around with several women at the same time. They look at it as a numbers game of sorts.

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

If they're talking to 5 women at the same time, dating each of them maybe once every 2-3 weeks or so with a text or phone call here and there in between dates, they're keeping 5 options for themselves in play. They date the first few once or twice, talk to them a few times in between, maybe sleep with them once or twice and then realize - we're not a match, this isn't going to work. So they drop contact with those few and keep moving forward with the remaining 2-3, and maybe even start talking to an entirely new one in the meantime.

They're generally always keeping a lot of balls in the air like jugglers, knowing that they'll drop a few, but also constantly adding other balls into the air to keep the entire thing going. . .until one of them appears to have more potential than the others.

And this is why I constantly warn - if a man moves at the speed of light, it's a big red flag. Because men generally do not start to feel strong emotions in days or weeks, so if a man is claiming to love you after 2 dates - there's just no way that can possibly be true. They may feel infatuation or lust, but not real love. Real love takes time to grow.

And I think one of the reasons that women can tend to feel defeated or discouraged when dating is because they have more of a tendency to place all their eggs into one man's basket and then they begin to immediately make heavy emotional investments into that one man before really taking plenty of time to get to know him first.

And if things don't work out with that one man that they've now made heavy emotional investments into. . .it's a huge blow. Not only are they left with nothing, but they're also drained emotionally as well, leaving very little energy behind to start all over again with.

Nana's probably been there. We all have at one time or another. . .but you live and you learn ;-)

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Hopeful,
"do you sense anything odd? . . .these e-mails sound a bit strange, so pathetic. I got suspicious after reading them. And they are useless because he knows that I am willing to meet him."

Yea - something is "off" there.

Desperation in general always makes me concerned that there's a motivation or agenda at play. When someone is desperate, they're "desperate" for something. Meaning - there's something hidden that's STRONGLY driving them and their behavior, so what is it?

What is it that they are just SO desperate for???

They clearly want something desperately, need it desperately, so what is it? Is it money, is it a fool, is it a favor they'll eventually ask for, is it sex that they seek, is it a text buddy, have they fallen on hard times and they're looking for a foolish woman who will buy the flowery words they'll eventually sell them and move the guy into her home lock, stock and barrel in a month. . .what IS it?

There's always a heavy need driving that behavior and generally speaking when it's a man behaving like this, and it's taking place online. . .you've got to really have your guard up.

Don't get me wrong, women behave desperately online and offline but, and this may sound sexist but I'm just going to say it - it's a bit more understandable for me with women. It's understandable because of how women express and experience their emotions and because of the fact that women can also tend to invest emotionally heavy at first. But men. . .generally speaking, they don't operate like that or have those tendencies to the degree that women do.

So for me, when I see that behavior from men, particularly online - it always feels to me like I'm about to be bent over. . .and screwed - to put it bluntly.

Anonymous said...

@Mirror
Thank you for your reply. You are 100% percent correct (as usual). Absolutely. It´s a pity I didn´t write earlier but I would most probably have gone for that date anyway because I had promised him. Well, in the evening the day before we were supposed to meet he phoned me to finalize the details of our meeting. My gut started to sense something odd because out of the blue as we were talking I suggested meeting another time because of very hot wather, too hot for a pleasant cycling ride (I guess subconsciously I tried to get out of it). He immediately protested saying he had planned a nice trip and added (almost commanded) that I should put on a lot of suncream and a hat. It felt a bit odd but he was polite and smiling and sweet so I still felt safe to go. In the morning my gut was uneasy again, I suddenly thought: "It will not be a pleasant experience." However, I didn´t want to cancel at the last moment so I went. Also, I suppressed my gut feelings thinking that I was just nervous to meet a stranger. I came to the spot bang on time and he wasn´t there. I cycled around for some time and then my mobile rang. He told me he was inside a little bistro nearby. What a "hero". He could see me from there so presumably, if he hadn´t liked my appearance he would have disappeared. Then I saw him - much shorter than he had described himself, a helmet on, sunglasses on, I couldn´t see at all what exactly he looked like. We shook hands and set off but my gut wasn´t happy. And then, during the ride, I had this persistent feeling - how I could be useful to him, what I could do for him, I am not enough for him, something along those lines. All the time. It might sound strange but I realized that it was his neediness what I felt. He was needy, he needed me (or anybody else) to put his baggage on. Also, he lied to me, he presented himself as a nice innocent man, while he was extremely unpleasant in an unindentifiable way because he was "nice" and "decent" on the surface. He kept talking and talking about himself in a monotonous voice but not to impress me, he just ventilated. He didn´t ask a single question about me. When I wanted to say something about me he bluntly interrupted me and continued about himself. He turned round his head to see every woman we we passing, I thought he would fall off his bike. At the end of the ride I was absolutely exhausted and disgusted with life in general although the day was sunny, I have a holiday and cycling is my favourite activity (not my usual state). So, Mirror, you were right and next time when I come across a man like him I will run. I understand that he is a poor guy, unattractive to women and perhaps needs some compassion rather than criticism. However, he was deliberately disrespectful while being "nice and polite" on the surface, which means he is no good and knew what he was doing. Never again am I going to meet a man without a photo however nice he might sound on the phone. And never again will I go cycling with a stranger (you can´t terminate the date - also, it´s cheap because he doesn´t have to pay as much as in the city - it was his suggestion of course).
Thank you again, Mirror:-). Have a nice day,
Hopeful

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Laura,
"what do we do about men that don't necessarily disappear for weeks but do what he's doing?"

Be fair - and treat him exactly as he's treating you LOL ;-)

"I also read about the mirroring tactic - should I do that? I was also thinking that if he responds today maybe I should not reply at all rather than reply 24 hours later and just see if he pursues?"

Yep, you got it. Put him to the test. If he's not concerned about making you a priority, then don't concern yourself with making him one. Go on about your business, keep moving forward, and see if he bothers to catch up to you.

If he doesn't - then that tells you something and you need to pay attention to that. Get what I'm saying? Don't beat yourself up, don't blame yourself and don't look to your own actions for the answer but rather, look at him and his actions - and make a wise decision for yourself.

"Just to show him that ignoring me is not on? Because this has happened before Mirror and he never gives an excuse as if to say that I have no right to demand an explanation."

That's PERFECT - because if he starts being manipulative and sniffing around trying to guilt you into feeling bad by asking why you're not responding right away or answering him. . .you can simply say to him, "I don't get insecure and demand an explanation from you when you do this to me - so why are you becoming insecure and demanding an explanation from me right now?" ;-)

Anonymous said...

@Laura,

I dealt with a guy like this a few months ago. It was a preview of what was to come, and it wasn't good. Mind you, I held my own with him. From day one I mirrored his texts, both in length, content and response time, and I never demanded an explanation of why he took so long to respond (or why he never responded at all to my last text) (i.e., I didn't act insecure). He didn't pick up any clues from behavior because he never really cared from day one about what it would or would not be -- it was just all on his convenience.

So, do you -- become interested in other men. He may alter his behavior based on yours, but my guess is that he won't....to me, it's just a signal that there is a better man out there -- men who are open to a relationship with the right woman and who are ready, respond differently.

I also, in the past, had one of those guys sniff around/get manipulative when I flipped the script and treated him as he treated me (and even have had a girlfriend do the same)....it's incredulous when it happens. If that happens, take it as a red flag and run for your life...people who do that have a huge sense of entitlement and lack self-awareness. At the end of the day, their crazymaking behavior will leave you sapped of energy that you can use to live a happy life.

Heartbroken Gemini said...

Mirror,



I cannot express how thankful I am for your articles and comments on here. I am also extremely grateful for the comments of the other ladies (and occasional gentleman) on here. I have read and re-read the article and comments on here and found much comfort and solace in them. I am suffering immensely. I think it's worth noting that recently I have been reflecting on why I have had many failed attempts at relationships. I realized that I probably suffer from an anxious attachment style that makes it difficult for me cope with men who are inconsistent and noncommittal. I have been working on becoming more secure, including therapy, but it is a long hard road. However, I have a successful career, a loving family, and great friends,but I really want a partner to share my life. A little over three months ago, I met a man at a dating event. We hit it off, and he asked me on a date. We are both 36 years old. Before we even had our date, he told me that he was looking for something long term and asked what I was seeking (the same). He explained that he did not have any desire to meet or date many women. Now that I have known him for a little while, I am confident that he was being sincere. Our first date was wonderful. He brought my flowers, and we had a wonderful evening. From the day we met, he texted me everyday, usually throughout the day, and the feelings seemed mutual. We became sexually intimate, and right before we did, he told me that he had not had sex in a year. He later explained that he didn't feel comfortable approaching women and he did not like chatting a woman up in hopes that they would hit it off just to have sex. We continued to talk daily (usually at his initiation) and see each other once or twice a week, sometimes once every other week. He treated me so well and I think my expectations grew when in reality I should have tempered them. A few weeks ago, I sensed a shift in him. He was initiating less contact and behaving in a somewhat distant manner. Of course, this is where things go downhill very quickly.

Heartbroken Gemini said...

Cont'd...
I tried to talk to him about this (I know...big mistake). He said that he was not sure where things were going and felt conflicted. He explained that he liked me, always enjoyed our time together, and that we always had fun. He also explained that he thought that maybe it was best to end things before we got hurt. He said he was not good with commitment because he cannot express his emotions well. He stated that when a relationship ends, the separation that occurs is very difficult for him. He has not had a relationship in a long time. I told him that we can just see where things go and not worry about what happens. He agreed and that was the end of the conversation. I saw him a few days later on my birthday. We had a nice evening and he told him he was glad that we had gotten together. Over the next two weeks, he seemed to distance and initiated less contact, although he generally responded relatively promptly when I reached out and he seemed happy to hear from me, even asking questions. I went into pursuit mode, which was again a big mistake. I asked him to do something a couple times and he gave sort of dodged the question. I called him a couple times to chat and tried to keep it under 15 minutes. Right as I was about to say I have to go, he told me he needed to run into a store and asked if he could call back. Both times, he called back an hour later and we chatted for an hour. He seemed to want to talk. I brought up the shift again a couple of times and he said that he was not sure still. He stated that he didn't think he was all in and that he was not sure if he feels the same way about us as he did before. During one of these conversations, he told me that he felt the need to run away (which is ironic because on our first date, he literally said to me "I am not going to run away.") but did not understand why. I asked if most of his relationships were like this, and he said yes, some were. He said he felt the need to runaway from other women too. I think that he may suffer from a fearful avoidant attachment style because much of what he says is textbook for people with that type of issue. I told during all three of these conversations that if he wants to end things, it is alright to tell me because I will be fine and not to try to slowly fade away in an attempt to let me down easy. He did not take the out.

Heartbroken Gemini said...

Con'td. In this last conversation, I told him that I haven't felt like I can talk to him recently, and he seemed genuinely taken back and surprised. He stated that his work has become increasingly demanding these past few weeks (he works 6 or 7 days a week on average) and that it has not left him with any time to devote to himself of me lately. I told him that there is going to come a point sooner or later where we will have to see if we can connect again, and if not, make the decision to end this. His response: let me check my schedule tomorrow to see when I am working this weekend. Two days later, a Saturday, I texted him about something with my car, and he responded (although it was not necessary). I asked him how he was and no response.

I am heartbroken and upset but I am tired of degrading myself like this with men. Mirror, you are right. Talk does not get you anywhere with them. I think I wrongly began to pursue when he pulled back. I let my emotions take over the steering wheel. I should have pulled back immediately. Instead, I told him how I feel. The fact that I did it in a calm manner makes no difference. I still expressed emotions, which as you have explained countless times, seems to drive men running in the opposite direction. I think he felt pressure and he also was truly confused why his feelings changed (but it was probably because I began to pursue). I have decided to implement NC because I can no longer put myself out there like this. I can't keep begging for love and attention from someone who will not or cannot give it. I think that he may be emotionally unavailable but he also seems genuinely sensitive and caring. He's is definitely not a player like many men discussed on here. I am on day 18 on NC. (I have done this before with another man, and three weeks to the day later, he was blowing up my phone as I ignored him. He was just a committmentphobe so nothing more came of that.) I am trying to stay strong and I realize that I need to value myself more. I am moving on.I no longer just stay in bed when I am not at work. I go out with friends, walk my dog, and find ways to feel up my time (even if it's just with the TV). I have gone on several dates and am giving men whom I not sure I'm attrached to a chance because they seem decent. I am trying to move on, and I know NC will work because it will help me move on and grow. However, I just kept wondering whether he will come back around. I feel that maybe he needs some space and time to process his feelings. I made my desire to continue seeing each other clear, and I now think that he felt that I would just wait for him like a dog by the door. I think NC may be the only way to convey to him that this is the end. I am hoping it will give him a chance to see if there is any feelings left for me. I am so heartbroken because I feel like I blew it with a good man that I really liked. I would appreciate any insight you can give.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Heartbroken Gemini,
"He said he was not good with commitment because he cannot express his emotions well."

Hmm. Not sure if I'm buying that. When someone tells you that they're not good with commitment or don't want a commitment - believe them - ALWAYS. The fact that he cannot express his emotions well is something he can work on, yet he chooses not to and he bails instead. So I'm not quite sure I'm buying that as a reason for his non-committal ways. Because if he truly did want a commitment, he'd work on that and himself a bit to make one more possible.

"He has not had a relationship in a long time. . .He stated that he didn't think he was all in. . .he told me that he felt the need to run away"

There's a pattern here if you look closely.

"he literally said to me "I am not going to run away."

I've always said that when someone feels a need to state the obvious - watch out. Because nine times out of ten, what they're telling you they're not going to do, is exactly what they end up doing. When out of the blue someone says, "Oh you can trust me" - don't trust them. People can trust me and as a result, I don't feel the need to run around trying to convince everyone they can trust me. It's obvious they can trust me, because my actions don't betray that trust.

It's basically overcompensation. The individual knows they cannot be trusted by others, so they spend a lot of time trying to convince others that they actually CAN trust them. And in this man's case, my guess is he knows he's going to eventually bail because he's somewhat of a commitment-phobe, so he spends time trying to convince others up front that he's actually not going to do that. He's overcompensating for his shortcoming in a sense.

"I asked if most of his relationships were like this, and he said yes"

It's a pattern of behavior.

"I think I wrongly began to pursue when he pulled back. I let my emotions take over the steering wheel. I should have pulled back immediately."

Well, a lot of human behavior is actually predictable. Your response was predictable, he response was predictable - because we're all human and many of our responses are similar. BUT - this can work to YOUR advantage if you can spot when it's happening. . .and take the opposite response.

Let me explain. If you're standing in the street and all of a sudden, you see someone running straight for you, charging towards you with force - what is your natural response going to be? You're knee-jerk reaction without even thinking would be to dodge away, step away, take a few steps back. . .you'd move - AWAY from the force that's coming towards you. It's a very natural, instinctual response.

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

Now let's say that you're standing in the same street, and a stranger comes up behind you, taps you on the shoulder, and then walks away. What are you going to do? You're going to turn and face them. you'll probably even take a few steps towards them, and you may even call out after them with something like, "Do I know you?" Or "Can I help you, do you need something?" You're now engaging with them, or at the very least probably made an attempt to somehow. Either way, they've got your attention, and they're going to hold your attention for a while because the confusion of the situation isn't going to let you break free just yet because you're seeking an answer. This individual is going to hold your attention and you may even stand there and watch them till they walk out of view - waiting for your answer. It's a very instinctual, natural response.

In the first scenario someone is coming at you with force so you flee from it. In the second scenario someone got your attention through subtlety, and you wanted "more" from them when they walked away from you.

Relationships and human interaction are very similar in this manner. Force = flee. Flee = follow. If you want someone's attention, as odd as this may sound, WALKING AWAY from them without a word is what will actually garner a lot of it. If you come at them hard, they will flee. If you instead do not say a word and just walk away without explanation, chances are they will follow - seeking an explanation (at which time they will then usually invite a "talk" and it's at that time that you then get to communicate clearly. . .because you've now got their attention, they're ready to talk, they want answers, and they're engaged and ready to listen).

"I have decided to implement NC because I can no longer put myself out there like this."

This will be good for you actually. Don't focus on using it to get him back (though he probably will circle around again). Use it for yourself. It will help you to detach emotionally, it will help you practice self-discipline and it will save your dignity and make you feel proud of yourself instead of bad about yourself.

Don't beat yourself up over this. Instead, focus on how much benefit you're getting from it, how much more of your life - your own personal life - that you've begun to embrace and enjoy again because of it, and how much pride it will leave you with to actually accomplish this. Those are the things that are important. Yea sure, it's nice to have someone to share your life with. But if it's not the RIGHT someone for you, it won't be all that enjoyable anyway, so you're not missing out on anything.

And once you settle into a new routine that's filled with optimism, excitement, activity, socializing and carefree fun and enjoyment of the small things in life. . .you will start to draw situations, people and circumstances to you that will only fill your life even more. And before you know it, you're actually living a full life, and that feeling or that void and emptiness that you feel now without someone. . .will not be as intense anymore :-)

Heartbroken Gemini said...

Mirror,

(I tried to post this earlier but not sure it went through so I am trying again)

Thank you so much for taking your time and energy to share your advice and support with me. I am immensely grateful for it. You are right on so many points. I originally wrote that post when I was at 4 days NC two weeks ago but I don't think it went through so I tried again today at 18 days. I still miss him and I wish things were different. I wish I had handled things different, although I do not know if things would have turned out any differently if he is truly the commitmentphobe I suspect he is. He fits the classic commitmentphobe profile. But enough about him...

I want to share this with all the ladies struggling with NC. NC ALWAYS works! In the past few weeks, I have done everything Mirror suggests. I got a massage. I started getting my hair blown out regularly, and I have tried to do my hair and make up and put on cute clothes and jewelry every day. Those things are superficial and frivolous, but they have always made me happy and feel better about myself. I have also leaned on family and friends. I went on a trip for the Fourth with friends, and I have discovered support and friendship in unexpected places. I have begun to develop a fun and close friendship with a colleague I have known for over a decade but did not realize we clicked so well. I also realized that I was carrying around a lot of hurt and sadness from a fractured friendship with someone I used to consider my best friend. I approached her to talk, and after a difficult but necessary conversation, we are on our way to rebuilding our friendship. That one development alone brought me so much healing. Finally, I have made arrangements to complete a fertility treatment I have been putting off. I don't think I would have focuse on these things so much if I have not made the decision to implement NC and rebuild my self-esteem.

Heartbroken Gemini said...

Also, you are correct that they almost always return, albeit not how or when you want them to return. Lol. After I implemented NC a few weeks ago, I literally said out loud to a friend, "I am putting it out there in the universe that they all should come back." Lo and behold, in the last two weeks, not one, not two, not three, but EIGHT men who have dated me and dumped (well, one I dumped) have returned. This group ranges from men I have gone on a few dates with to one I dated for two years. Although one is from early this year, a couple are from last year, and the others are from two or more years ago. One I had a fling with over ten years ago. They have reappeared by making contact via social media, text, and at my workplace. I have responded to some that I still respect and consider friends while the others I have ignored (I am over a year into NC with one of them and he has not heard a peep from me despite his occasional attempts at contact). The best part? I don't care if I hear from them or not. I have self-esteem and power that I did not have while involved with them. I am now trying to value myself the way I deserve. Men tend to over value themselves in dating while women tend to under value themselves. I say no more. I will never allow a man to take my self-esteem and power away from me ever again. Today I realized that I am worth so much more than the way I behave with these men. I have succeeded in my profession, support myself, have great family and friends and have survived a life threatening illness alone. I will no longer give away my power. Prior to this situation, I have never been able to walk away from a relationship without a scene. NC has made it possible to maintain my dignity. I have not cried, yelled, or really melted down with this last disappearing man. I decided to not give him another opportunity to reject me. And that feels AMAZING! He can wonder why I fell off the face of the earth or what I am up to....and you know that because I have tried to focus on me, I will be up to something good. :-)

Finally, I have begun dating other men. As you have suggested in your posts, I am treating these dates more as "socializing" so I have less expectations. I just hope to have a pleasant time and I am learning to decline dates that are less than what I want, which means no sofa dates, no dates where I drive to meet you near your house, no dates starting late at night, etc. I have taken your advice to heart and I am now screening these men much more carefully. I know focus more on whether I like them rather than whether they like. I have also learned so much about the PUA types from reading on here and I am using that knowledge to filter these men better. I also mirror their behavior and don't always respond to their texts or messages. It feels so much better to feel like I am control. I do not think I would have gotten to this point without this forum. Thank you, Mirror! Thank you, ladies! There is hope after heartbreak!

Anonymous said...

Dear Heartbroken Gemini,
I just wanted to tell you that I was where you are now, a few months ago. Same commitmentphobe, same regrets :-). In a few words, he was afraid to commit (we had never discussed about our relationship), he got scared imagining I don`t know what and he `left`...by phone. No chance for me to express myself. Back then I didn`t know anything about Mirror`s strategies :-)...I expressed my feelings, my regrets for the situation...but I didn`t harrass him. After a while, as he couldn`t care less, I walked away, meaning I cut him off completely (FB, skype, phone etc.). I had had enough and I didn`t want to risk seeing him with someone else.
Now, after 4 months of NC, I can tell you it`s the best thing I have done since I met him. It was hard at the beginning, but here I am, strong and optimistic again!
Just don`t torture yourself thinking you could have done things differently. It goes for him too. You at least made an effort, to explain, to fight etc. Focus on the NC and on detaching. Mirror is right, NC is the wonder of wonders.
Good luck and I hope you`ll meet your prince charming one day....
L

Anonymous said...

@Heartbroken Gemini

Nice to hear you sounding so positive.

FWIW, when you meet the "right" guy (or at least one who is healthy), I doubt he will pull away dramatically and that you will go into pursuit mode...the more emotionally available he is, the less you will be triggered...so don't beat yourself up for trying to talk to that guy you were dating...I have found most women, even the most secure, will do this as a first step (calmly and maturely) because we are socialized to inquire when we feel there is a problem. Very natural reaction. I think the key for women is learning to know when to *stop* any inquiry. The right guy won't have a problem being responsive. But yes, that guy sounds like he was emotionally unavailable -- and even more important, not willing to overcome that.

Anonymous said...

So...what is the difference in doing "no contact" for 30 days on a man who needs "space." And the rubber band theory, which I've read before in John Gray's books. You say no contact whatsoever for thirty days, but the rubber band article just says to reply to his text or call 3 days later. Thanks! AlabamaGirl

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Alabama Girl,
"what is the difference in doing "no contact" for 30 days on a man who needs "space." And the rubber band theory"

No contact is a complete shut down of any type of contact for a period of time. Rubber band is similar to "mirroring" behavior over short intervals, creating a "back and forth" type of push and pull.

Heartbroken Gemini said...

Ladies and Mirror,

Thanks so much for the kind words and support. You have been so helpful. :-)

Just when I started to feel better, the universe sends a test to really try me. I met my disappearing man at an even sponsored by an online dating site, but I never saw his online profile. I never bothered to find it on there because that's just not my style. I went out for drinks with a friend last night and while I was there, I checked my email. For days, I had been thinking that there was a possibility he was going to show up in my matches. I usually don't check my matches but I have felt compelled to do so in the last week. I check the email and the first match is him! I was horrified. I immediately panicked and felt like someone kicked me in the gut. I felt like bursting into tears but I held back because we were in the middle of a bar I frequent. I wanted run home and jump in bed but I forced myself to stay put. The worst part was that I had invited a guy I do not know well so I didn't wand him to see me distraught.

I am on day 21 of NC and I have done so well. But this incident made me want to lash out. It made me want to send him a message saying "well, isn't this ironic?" In his profile, he described the type of woman he is seeking, and it is basically me. :-( I have just been repeatedly telling myself to do nothing and that his profile is false advertising because he is really a true commitmentphobe. But I am devastated and crushed all over again. I also feel that I have inadvertantly threated my NC because he can see that I saw his profile! I don't want him to think I was seeking him out. I know this will pass and I have to just stay strong and keep NC.

The guy who joined me and my friend last night is someone I met anothrer dating event in February. We share a common background so we exchanged numbers. He asked me out in March but then cancelled a few days in advance, asking for a raincheck and citing work related reasons. I said no problem. I didn't hear from him again until a couple of weeks ago when he asked me to join him for a bar crawl. I told I had plans (it was a same day request and I did have plans) but that we should do something like that soon. He said he had just moved to my town, and the next week he asked me for a drink. I joined him and I had a good time. I told him about an activity I do with my friends once a week and he expresed an interest so I invited him to join. He joined us and he seemed to have a great time. However, I got the feeling maybe he had put me in the friend zone so I decided it was fine to invite him to join my friend and I last night. The more I spend time with him the more interested I become in getting to know him and possibly dating. Is there a way I can get myself out of the friend zone if that is what happened? Also, he asked me to let him know if I am going to group activity this coming week so he can join. I told him I would let him know. Is that initiating on my part if I tell him I am going and that he can join next week? Sending you lots of gratitude and love!

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Heartbroken Gemini,
"Is there a way I can get myself out of the friend zone if that is what happened?"

Can you force him to be romantically interested in you? No, you cannot.

You don't have to "do" anything to garner a man's attention. If a man is romantically interested, he'll let you know and when he does, all you have to do is respond encouragingly. There's no way of knowing if you're in the friend zone or not, so assuming that you are may be a mistake and taking action along those lines under that assumption could cause problems and be regrettable. So it's best to do nothing, wait and see if the man is interested and begins to pursue you romantically, and if he does - respond encouragingly.

"Is that initiating on my part if I tell him I am going and that he can join next week?"

If you'd really like to know whether or not he's interested - do nothing. And then see if he begins to pursue you, contact you, text you, and ask for you to join him. The only way a woman can know if a man is truly interested is to see if he pursues her.

JD said...

Dear Mirror,
Thank you for writing this great series about Disappearing Man. I'm currently going through a similar thing, as in this guy is also pulling the DM act, but we weren't really dating. I hope you could give me some advice as to how to deal with it. It would be greatly appreciated.
So here goes, this guy was one of my closest friends of over 10 years and we share a lot of mutual close friends. We both had just come out of our respective relationship last year and we helped each other through it. More like I was helping him and occasionally talked a bit about my problem. I think I do have some sort of more-than-friend attraction to him, not sure about his feeling for me though but he flirted often (which I thought was just playful). While he is the type that likes to have lots of fun, be adventurous, take risks, and value his freedom, he used to be a very nice guy who would be very committed to his girlfriend. Then after dating and had his heart broken by a couple of bad girls, he's become like a playboy and a very selfish and irresponsible man. But I still thought at least he was good to his close friends i.e. one of them being me (how naive I was LOL).
Things happened early this year when I went back to my hometown, where he lives. We live in different cities and I would only see him when I go back there, but we used to keep regular contact over texts and calls. Especially during the period after his breakup and right before I was about to come back, he would call me every other day or message me, which at the time I thought was quite nice that he valued my friendship that much. Because he has a lot of other guy friends living closeby who he could easily hang out with if he was feeling lonely (due to the breakup), but he thought of me instead (LOL how naive again). Later, I realised he just needed female attention to boost his ego after his gf left him (because he treated her badly).

JD said...

(cont) When i went back to my hometown, he treated me really well and took me out very often, more often than my previous visits. Then a few days before I left, we went out again, which he then suggested going back to his place to watch movies. I should probably note that this was the first time I would spend time alone with him in such kind of setting, despite being his BFF, we had almost always hung out in groups, but at the time, I thought his suggestion was reasonable and agreed. After watching movie for a bit, he started making a move on me and trying really hard to get me in the mood for sex. And I agreed to it. I guess because I do have feeling for him and also I was lonely after my own breakup. I immediately regretted it right after the sex, and it showed on my face, which freaked him out a bit. However, to my surprise, after 10-15 mins later, he initiated for second round, but I refused this time and asked him to take me home. Before dropping me off, he said that we would never talk about this again.
On my last few days, I could sense that he’s changed and was much more reluctant in hanging out with me (because we’d already made plans with other friends before so we had to go). The day I left, I texted to say goodbye and he said don’t be sad because we still talk regularly on the phone. Of course that didn’t happen  he never initiated contact after that and would take much longer to answer texts and he would sound annoyed. After a couple of weeks, he stopped answering completely even though my text was to congratulate him on his birthday. No thank you no nothing. I could already sense what he was doing earlier, but it was that moment that I stopped living in denial and confirmed that he was indeed pulling the DM. So I stopped contacting him and following him on social media as well. It wasn’t really because I wanted him to notice my absence and miss me, but it was mainly because I felt disrespected, hurt, disappointed and ashamed of myself for putting myself through all this even though I knew him well enough to avoid this happening to me. I felt very stupid and naïve. My self-esteem was hurt badly. I felt used, especially after taking some times to re-think about that night and talking to some other guy friends, I realised it was all his plan. At first, I thought he was genuine in suggesting we hang out in his place, and the sex wasn’t planned, it was just something happened in the moment. We’ve been friends since we were teenagers and I didn’t think he had any interest in me anyways. However, after remembering other things he did/said that day, I told my other guy friends and they thought he actually planned it all along and was just pulling typical guy tricks on me to get me into bed. I felt horrible after the realisation. The one person who I thought was my best friend and that could trust just used me for sex and dumped me on the side when his needs had been met. Oh he also ignored my birthday, which he never did before.

JD said...

(cont) We have not been in contact since and after a pretty long time of feeling sad and depressed, I’m finally feeling much better now (partly thanks to reading your articles and other articles on forgiving). I’m still not yet over the incident and still think about it more than I should, but at least I’ve stopped wanting an explanation. Back then, I used to imagine if I see him again, I’d ask him why he’s doing this, why he disappeared. Right now, I realized asking this question is unnecessary because 1. If he says something nice, I wouldn’t believe him anyways, 2. If the reason is bad, my self-esteem will be hurt even more, and 3. It doesn’t matter why he did it, what matters is he knew I hated it and he did it anyways.
Sorry for rambling for so long without stating my question  My problem is, I’ll be going back to my hometown soon and we’ll have to face each other as we were both invited to an event which we can’t decline. With mutual friends being there, there’s little chance to ignore each other. How should I act then? Also, I guess part of me is still hoping that I’m just over-reacting and that his action is somehow reasonable given our circumstance (bffs having sex, which maybe weird him out and he needed time away to think?) because he was one of my closest friends and I really don’t want to lose this friendship. I heard from mutual friends that he’s been asking about the date of my return recently. I’m not sure if this means anything. Is he preparing for his reappearance or is he preparing for his great escape in case other friends invite him to group hangouts with me during my time in town? He still hasn’t contacted me though and it’s been over6 months now. I don’t plan to initiate contact with him at all even when I’m there, but what if he reappeared and contacted me again? What should I do then? Please help me out. Thank you so much in advance.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@JD,
"How should I act then?"

Very confident, very happy and very aloof (towards him), as if you hardly notice his presence. Say hello if he confronts you, ask how he's doing - and then immediately excuse yourself and socialize in the room with others. Keep things brief and light, keep a smiles on your face, and don't let him see you sweat.

The energy you want to convey here is that you're fine, you've barely noticed he's absent from your life, you're happy and energetic - and your really could care less about him. You're not angry, but you could really care less and having fun with others there is the name of the game - he's not important. And if he suggests a talk or attempts to corner you into one, excuse yourself from it and don't do that. Do NOT give the impression that this is even important enough for you to devote another ounce of your time to. . .and happily walk away from him, more than once if you have to.

"bffs having sex, which maybe weird him out and he needed time away to think"

I hate to say this but - that situation rarely, if ever works. And when it doesn't, you lose the friendship. That's just the way it goes. Which is why I often suggest not tainting friendships that are valuable with sex. . .because if it doesn't work out, things are forever changed.

"Is he preparing for his reappearance or is he preparing for his great escape in case other friends invite him to group hangouts with me during my time in town?"

Only time will tell the tale.

"what if he reappeared and contacted me again? What should I do then?"

Ignore him, don't respond to any texts and don't respond to any calls from him - unless you want to dredge this entire situation and all of these emotions back up again. This situation happened, it didn't end well, things didn't work out, that probably will not change, and it's best to think about yourself now and just move away from it, and stay away from it - for your own good, for your own healing, and for your own piece of mind:

http://www.aphroditeastrology.com/2012/11/dating-when-why-how-use-no-contact-rule.html

Anonymous said...

My DM disappeared 5 weeks ago. Brief background, we have known each other for years through a travel group but due to circumstances did not "get together" until last year, long distance, not exclusive. Talked about doing things together in the future, he would never let more than 2 weeks go without calling me.

We have upcoming trips planned and based on some things he said to me I was getting the feeling he only wanted FWB. So to set some boundaries for myself I told him that I was not interested in being anyone's plaything, travel f-buddy, or FWB. He seemed ok with it and later told me he was not a piece of meat which we both laughed at, my assuming that meant we were on the same page.

He came to visit me 2 months after we had the FWB discussion. He kept bringing it up and I finally asked him if that bothered him. He said he was offended by it and that I would think he is that kind of person. Of course I was horrified that he thought that as that was not at all my intention. I told him he misunderstood what I was saying, but the discussion went downhill from there. He seemed to turn it around on me and said I think he is a piece of meat (not at all true, btw) and said that I was expecting sex on our trip (again, not true). I felt so awful and I apologized for it.

He gave me the cold shoulder the rest of his visit, I was on egg shells the whole time...of course I handled this completely the wrong way I know now, hindsight! I was going to cancel this upcoming trip but he brought it up just before he left so I decided not to. I also sent him a text a few days later apologizing again. He finally called me a couple weeks later acting like nothing ever happened. We talked a couple times after that then nothing for the last 5 weeks. I have not contacted him.

Here is the dilemma... the trip is we are going on is coming up in a week. It is a group trip so there will be other people, but we had extended the trip to spend some time together. There will be a few other folks on this extension but a much smaller group and I only did it because of him.

As far as I'm concerned we are done. I'm on to his "game". Obviously I hit the nail on the head with the travel f-buddy, nixed his little plan, and when he realized he wasn't going to get his way he got upset and tried to turn the tables on me. Only thing I can't figure out is why he came to visit me at all?!

What really sucks about this is if he had just been honest with me we could remain friends, but not after he treated me so poorly when he was here and then blows me off. No way!

I am so apprehensive about this trip. I have no intention of engaging in any conversation with him, I don't need to ask him why, etc., and I will be cordial and respectful. I wouldn't put it past him to either act like nothing ever happened and assume he is getting back in my bed or say mean things to me to try to get a reaction out of me. It won't work. I refuse to stoop to his level. And I have another trip in 6 months I have to deal with him...ugh!

Thoughts or suggestions greatly appreciated!!

Anonymous said...

Mirror, I'm taking partial blame here. However, now I don't know for certain how to handle this because part of the reason he has disappeared is my own behavior. At little background. We have been dating now 7 months. Two months from now he is moving to another state and he has mentioned me going with him. However, with that said it was just a mention. No real set for certain plans. Around eight weeks into the relationship we began seeing each other nearly every single day at some point during the day. Typically during the daytime hours we don't talk or meet up much. However nearly everyday at 4pm we meet to workout and then meet back up after the gym at either his place or mine. It's been good and I'm happy with that. He also has spent a lot of time getting to know my family. So the 4th of July which was a Saturday he was here celebrating with my family. Around 9pm, he said he had to leave to meet a friend of his at a pub because his friend had his phone. So of course I was a little hurt that he was leaving me on a Saturday night but I smiled and wished him a good night. The next morning he reports to me right away that yes he went to pick up his phone but that this person and that person wanted him to play pool so he stayed till 1am in the morning. I wasn't to happy about him being in a bar till 1am but again I smiled and said I'm glad you had fun. It's not like he has been doing this all the time so I thought big deal. ...Well the following Friday comes around and I don't hear from him. Around 9pm he sends me a text and he's like it was a long day. I'm going out to get dinner now. Hope you had a good day. ...Well mirror I just assumed he and I had a standing Friday date. Because that's the way it's been going for months. And because I felt like he ran of the previous Saturday night without me and now he was running off the next Friday night without me I was hurt. And I expressed that to him. By the following night we had made up via text. However, he wasn't asking to see me. It was around 9:30pm and I was pretty exhausted from being so upset so I thought for the best that I leave it alone. All up until I happened to drive honestly unintentionally by the bar he was at the previous Saturday and there he was again. His truck was there. It made me feel horrible. So I sent a not so nice text that said, thanks for leaving me at home again on a Saturday night while you go alone again to the bar. And he wrote me back and said that he only went in there to grab a bite to eat and that he would be out with me but since we had been fighting he wasn't and that there were only men there at any rate so not to be worried. So I replied I bet that's what you told your ex wife the night a girl managed to give you a hickey - Hope it's the best meal of your life. (he had told me a story of how his buddies had set him up and had some girl give him a hickey when he was married, how he didn't like it, and how he had to try to cover it up) And then - no reply from him.

Anonymous said...

The next morning I decided to go to the mall and there his truck was at that same pub. So I just decided to walk in with a good attitude and say hello and to break the ice. ...He was having brunch. We talked and he expressed that he's furious that I used that hickey remark against him. And how can he every trust me to not be mean when I'm angry. I thought he was going really overboard. Yeah it wasn't nice, but come one... So I apologized and said it wouldn't happen again and that it was fair to attack his character. He also expressed to me that he thinks that couples should have solo nights on the town & solo trips out of town. I don't agree with that. I told him that it's fine if he wants to go get a beer after work with the guys but staying out late in the night at bars wouldn't be ok. ....Anyways at the end of the conversation he said he needed some space to think over things because he was having second thoughts. He said he doesn't want a girl that is going to be upset when he goes out on the town with the guys & of course he was furious about my hickey comment. ....Now it's going on two days. And cooling off to process your thoughts is quickly becoming giving me the silent treatment. What do I do? Do I treat this like a disappearing man? Or do I take some ownership and reach out? And when he does come back around do I respond? Or wait the three days like you suggest in your article? Also Mirror, in all the examples of relationships I have been exposed to, @ the end of the day the couples are together. I don't expect to be with him all day long. That would be exhausting to me too. But now that we are talking about possibly living together. Yes, I really do want a man whom at the end of the day can't wait to be near me so that he can unwind and feel at home. Am I out of line?

chk61 said...

Greetings all:

Going on month 3 with new flame. He has finally gotten me to feel comfortable calling him my "boyfriend". :-) He's great in so many ways, very attentive, communicative, loving, dependable, funny. I am attracted to him. I just wish I did not have to worry about how he will support himself financially, at this stage of life. He does not seem that worried about it and is confident that things will work out. Trying to take it one day at a time.

In other news, I had a female friend, someone I befriended about 1.5 years ago, who is jealous. I have stayed in touch with her as much as possible, but c'mon, when you start dating someone and it gets serious, things change. I can't be all things to all people and heck, I DO MY BEST. She passive aggressively sends me texts telling me to "come back baby, come back to where you belong" (the bar we occasionally hung out at) when I tell her I am at his place, and was cheerfully declining her social invitation, saying "have fun!" When I told her I was seeing someone (after 8 years of being single, the longest dry spell ever) she responded: "well, chk61, this isn't very good for me. You're my only single friend." WHAT?

She has since made criticisms about the way he looks, and was not very nice about a recent profile photo I uploaded on the evil facebook. (I call it evil because I believe it is a negative force for relationships, friendships, families and just any kind of relationship but I participate due to everyone I know being on there....I look forward to the day social media goes the way of the dodo). It was a good photo of me and she made a snide remark. Yesterday she bit my head off in a conversation, was extremely rude, and that was the end of that. Now I understand what she meant when she told me that historically throughout her life, she has not had many friends.

Sigh. When you are in your 50's and your female "friends" freak out when you find a man, it can be challenging. Another one bites the dust. Things constantly change, people change, people move away, people are single, then they are in relationships. People are born, people die, life is constantly changing. I just let people be who they are....but I find I don't get the same in return sometimes. I am slowly letting people go who do not serve me, or who make me feel guilty or uncomfortable because I had the gall to find a relationship after 8 years of being single.

Some women! Enough with the jealousy, cattiness and competition!

Other female friends have dug for information and I am finally learning not to spill too much because I have learned that any information can and will be used against you (me). This is a hard lesson to learn in life, who can you confide in who you KNOW will respect that you want to keep certain things private. I have tended to be an open person in my life but I have learned with age that it is truly best to keep my mouth shut.

So as my mother always taught me, smile, always do your best or the best you can, be friendly, and don't tell people stuff they really don't need to hear.

Oh and after the D.M. popped up on my birthday? i wrote him back a quick reply 5 days later. Not sure why, but I have been a people pleaser and thought perhaps it was rude to not respond. No reply.

Means nothing, I just let it go, I let him go, I let my jealous girlfriend go. I let people go to be WHO THEY ARE because WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO is about THEM and really NOT about ME. I am only responsible for ME.

Yep, all is well in my universe, everything is the way it is supposed to be and I can't take on everyone else's drama.

I hope everyone is doing well out there in the trenches! ;-)

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@chk61,
I'm not sure you realize this, but maybe you do - you've just gone through a major transformation and have come out the other side. You've just completed a huge step in personal growth.

And by that, I mean the valuable, yet hard lesson of - LETTING GO.

Rather than making yourself miserable trying to please others and prove your worth to them, I hate to say this, but there are a lot of times in life when you're much better off letting go than fighting a tremendous uphill battle.

And this applies to all relationships, not just romantic ones. On the girlfriend front, I hear ya there. I've had more than my fair share of half truths being told, judgment being cast, snide remarks and jabs being thrown, petty observations being voiced - ALL OF IT.

Some of it quite recent as a matter of fact, and particularly painful when coming from those who you thought really were your trusted allies. When they take the stance of "judge first, don't bother gathering facts, then come in swinging with a low blow" - it's really disheartening. All of the small things you've done for them in the past, the kindness you've shown, the gestures you've made, the thoughtfulness you've exhibited, the generosity you've joyfully shared, the little gifts or things you've shown up at their doorstep with - it will all be thrown out the window and long forgotten when that one petty little thing comes along that they feel like latching onto.

I'm sure chk61, that you've shown kindness and generosity and understanding and compassion and offered a shoulder to cry on or a listening ear to this girlfriend - all to no avail, because now, she simply wants to latch onto the fact that you've got someone new in your life and you're no longer available to her as much, and therefore. . .the gloves are now off.

And the focus now has been moved from "big picture" to "petty" observations. Very disheartening.

But you know what - there are consequences to that behavior. And your girlfriend is probably about to suffer one of them, she just fails to realize how it's ultimately going to impact her life months from now - because she's focused on the "small petty" and not the "big picture" here. So rather than her keeping her cool and being mature, she's devolved into small-minded and petty and she will lose your friendship as a result. Had she played her cards differently, I'm sure you would've still made time for her from time to time in the future. But now, that's not an option and as a result. . .she's lost everything, she just doesn't know it yet.

It's hard - but the best thing is to let go and move away.

It's what you have to do for yourself. Because when folks begin to behave like this, as I stated previously, all of the small things you've done and the generosity you've shown and the support you offered - all go unnoticed and don't count for anything in the end anyway. It will all be forgotten.

So why continue "do, do, doing" more of the same and more for this person? Why beat your head against the wall going out of your way for someone who fails to notice the cumulative affect of your friendship and instead, focuses on the small and petty singular instance that's currently taking place? An instance, by the way, which has two sides to it, with only one of which she's bothering to focus on.

Simply. . .not. . .worth it.

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

Besides, people who throw barbs are proving to you that they're not concerned about losing your friendship - so why concern yourself with losing theirs. They're proving to you that they don't care about your feelings. And they're proving to you that they really weren't all that good of a friend to begin with anyway. Some friendships really turn out to be a matter of convenience in the end.

With friends like that - you don't need enemies. There's no room left in your back for anymore barbs or cheap shots.

And "frenemies" - while society insanely seems to think there's some reason to keep them around and keep those relationships afloat - I disagree strongly. Relationships of any kind are two way streets. When someone steps outside of that equality and balance and instead plops up the "One Way" sign. . .it's time to make a sharp right turn and take another route.

chk61 said...

Mirror:

Thank you for that wonderful validating response. Letting go is key. Over the years I have learned to adapt to changing social circumstances and I am quite fine spending time alone and doing things by myself. I was an independent kid who could spend hours amusing myself alone. In my 20's I was a bit more insecure but entering my 40's I came into my own. Sure, I still have insecurities - who doesn't? But one thing I am not is a MEAN girl!

Through my life I have been friendly and social with women friends only to see them rarely after they got into a relationship, got married/had children, or had a career that took off. Its called LIFE. I know it can be tough to be a single woman in a couple's world but to lash out at the woman friend who is living her life, and who was generally kind and non-judgmental is certainly, as you pointed out so well, asking for the friendship to end. The true friends are the ones you don't see for six months or three years and when you do see them, there is no guilt or tension. True friends are HAPPY for you when good things happen in your life. Yes, none of us is perfect, we all screw up but if you want to keep a friendship, you apologize when something inappropriate comes out of your mouth!

I have been thinking a fair amount about "frenemies". Lately I seem to be batting 1000 with the ladies. ;-) I am at a bit of a crossroads in my life and have some big changes on the horizon. Apparently I had been mentioning this pending change too much with the "friend" who told me off on the phone two days ago and has not apologized. She is going out of town for the next 4 days. I have listened to her go on and on about her various issues the entire time I have known her. When she took an trip overseas to exotic European cities, she called me almost every other day for 3.5 weeks. From Europe! When I travel abroad, I may call Mom once or twice but I don't call my friends to complain about how uncomfortable the bed is where I'm staying in Spain or how I can't wait to get home. I thought the frequent phone calls were odd but I took them, and was kind and patient. There have been times when I could have been judgmental or critical but I wasn't. Now I know she just used me and since I have found a man who is kind to me and who I enjoy spending time with, she threw a few barbs out.

My initial reaction was to try to apologize, make "nice" and clear the air with her. I discussed it with my boyfriend who advised me to just let it go, that someone who would behave that way would just retaliate. I brought him to a big party about a month after we met and he said she stared at him with an unfriendly odd look and throwing daggers with her eyes!!

Mulling over a few female "friends" behavior over the years, I'm focusing on the longstanding friendships I've had - the women who don't guilt trip me, try to one-up me or give me back-handed compliments. I think I have had a few "frenemies" who had borderline personality disorders, and that's not hyperbole! Sadly I think the woman I mentioned here is mentally ill. Nope, I can't take on a middle-aged woman's serious emotional issues.

In the meantime, ladies - I would like to stress once again. The man who disappears, who lets 6 months go by and then pops in with a quick Happy Birthday! is not interested in a relationship. The same man who doesn't respond to your response 5 days later.

The man who IS interested in you doesn't make you wonder. It really is that simple. Trust me, I spent years suffering over half-interested men but - fear not - when the right one comes along, he does NOT make you wonder and he does NOT disappear!

Keep the faith, ladies! Remember you don't have to chase after people - men or women - who treat you badly. It just isn't worth it. Be your own best friend. Thanks again, Mirror for this wonderful site. :-)

Anonymous said...

@Mirror and chk61
Absolutely - letting go of people who are not totally honest with you is a part of becoming happier with your own life. It can be painful though. I myself am struggling now with moving away from some of my old friends (or frenemies). We have known each other for quite some time and I feel very sorry but it isn´t working anymore. In the past I would have tried to fix our relationship but not any more because I understand it´s useless if I want to be the way I want to be.

chk61, thanks for your nice words of encouragement. Good luck with your boyfriend. He seems to be a nice guy who can make you happy. You sound relaxed and at peace.

And Mirror, thanks for your helpful advice. By the way, when I am in a bad mood I always reread your post about your dating experiences (especially the tree man is my number one favourite) and I laugh again and again.
Have a nice day,
Hopeful:-)

Gem50 said...

@Chk61,
Loved your post! I read it this morning, and it made me smile all day. Good for you; the following is said in celebration of you and your life now: I told you so! ;-)

chk61 said...

@Hopeful: Yes, letting go of friends/"frenemies" is *very* painful. I think I have suffered more when female friendships end more when romantic relationships haven't worked out. I had two other "close" female friends over the last 15 years that I had to just completely let go of. I had known them both less than 4-5 years, and we spent a lot of time together. Over time they both became extremely competitive, passive-aggressively trying to one-up me and outdo me, one told me directly: "chk61, I am jealous of you." Yeah, and that is MY problem? I'll spare you the ridiculous details of how that one went down.

The more recent "frenemy" screamed at me and told me off while we were out of town, ostensibly trying to have fun at a beautiful seaside resort. She was picking fights with me the entire time we were there, walked in front of me, and bossed me around. It was so unnecessary, I was walking on eggshells when we could have been having a relaxed and fun getaway. Two years later I am still not even completely over it (she lives within a mile of me) and I will NEVER forget the harsh words she used on me. I just don't have time for this kind of stuff anymore. As Taylor Swift sings: I now "shake it off". ;-) Yes, it's painful, as is any loss, but it is far worse to keep "frenemies" in our lives who make us feel BADLY!

The same goes for "disappearing men"! ;-)

As far as my new boyfriend, thank you Hopeful. As I've mentioned it is far from perfect, but he is the most devoted, loving and appreciative man I have ever been with. Finally, at age 54! It's funny and I used to scoff at that saying "It happens with you least expect it" but it's kind of true. After being with him and knowing how it feels when a man is crazy about me, I don't think I would waste any more time with a D.M. or a man who is half-interested, who makes me chase and wonder about him.

@Gem50! Thank you, lady! So glad it made you smile. Yes, I have been told! ;-)

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Jul 14, 1:05 PM,
"He seemed to turn it around on me and said I think he is a piece of meat (not at all true, btw) and said that I was expecting sex on our trip (again, not true). I felt so awful and I apologized for it."

That's emotional manipulation to make you feel guilty. His over-reaction to this is a red flag. Someone who goes over the top in their attempts to make you think they're NOT something, is usually doing so to disguise the fact that they ARE indeed what you're speculating.

"Obviously I hit the nail on the head with the travel f-buddy, nixed his little plan, and when he realized he wasn't going to get his way he got upset and tried to turn the tables on me."

EXACTLY.

"Only thing I can't figure out is why he came to visit me at all?!"

To manipulate you and make you feel guilty, in an attempt to see if in doing so - he could get you to drop your guard.

If I were you, you have two options - cancel this trip, or go on it and avoid this man at all costs and offer him no apologies, no reaction whatsoever. You'll have to be emotionally strong to do so, but if you think you can, those are really your only two options.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Jul 14, 1:15 PM,
"What do I do? Do I treat this like a disappearing man? Or do I take some ownership and reach out? And when he does come back around do I respond? Or wait the three days like you suggest in your article?"

I'd suggest that you give some serious thought as to whether or not this man is even compatible with you in the long run, and whether or not he'd even be able to fulfill your emotional needs. I'd venture a guess that this man is NOT the right man for you. He believes in space in relationships, and you don't - you're looking for someone who has a desire to spend more time together.

That right there can, and will, be a huge problem should you continue to date this man.

And if you feel strongly one way, and he feels strongly the other, the end result is that this would not work or be a match anyway. . .so why bother continuing to see him at all if that's the case?

"Yes, I really do want a man whom at the end of the day can't wait to be near me so that he can unwind and feel at home. Am I out of line?"

No, you're not out of line. Which is why you do need to give some thought as to whether or not this man is the RIGHT man for you.

You can't control others, you can only control your reaction to them.

If you want one thing, and he has the exact opposite beliefs - he's not going to change. Which means that continuing any further here would really end up being a waste of time. You're probably much better off ending this and instead, making room in your life for a man who wants the same things you want. The other options are to stay and beat your head against the wall attempting to change him and his beliefs to no avail, or giving in and settling for what he's willing to give. Neither of which will probably make you happy.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@The Ladies,
Too good not to share gals LOL - "If Women Catcalled Men:" https://youtu.be/p8uOErVShiE

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@The Ladies,
Umm. . .the follow up to that one is even BETTER LOL! "What Men Are Really Saying When They Catcall Women:" https://youtu.be/lUJ24mblCLY

Anonymous said...

Mirror, thank you for your reply to: @Anonymous Jul 14, 1:15 PM. When I read your answers to myself and others I'm always so dumbfounded as to how to the point, real and obvious they are. You have a gift of easily sorting out tangled necklaces - - - for lack of a better comparison. Thank you. .....I think after being single for so long - ....now 12 years since my divorce ....I often feel VERY motivated to either dismiss or work my butt off to fix differences in relationships. ...Even when they truly are significant and likely going to cause a lot of heartache and pain for a lifetime. It's not hard for me to find dates. I certainly don't feel like the sea is empty. There's A LOT of available men. ...But I do feel discouraged that I'm ever going to find a fish that has similar wants and desires as me that I'm actually attracted to... I tend to start to question whether I'm being wayyyy to picky or if what I want isn't realistic & it often leads me compromising what I know isn't right. Thank you for being such a wonderful sounding board.

Anonymous said...

hi MOA
I have a MIA man, who I have only seen in total 4 times over the past 3.5 months. We met, instantly connected and I went back to his for a couple of days. When I left he took my number and contacted me the following week, and we hooked up again that weekend. I then didn't hear from him for a while. We reinstated contact and I saw him again. Really, from the beginning we only got in touch with each other late at night, when I would go to his place or he would come to mine. Or I would receive drunk text messages saying he misses me, and missed calls at 3am. I decided to NC him after one weekend he didnt get back to me. Then we saw each other after the month was up (I contacted him). That weekend he was really affectionate in bed, but he is a man of few words, especially sober. Now, again, I haven't heard from him - it's been 10 days since we saw each other, and nothing. What should I do?

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Wed, Jul 22, 8:25 AM,
"What should I do?"

Well, as much as I hate to say this - what you should do is accept this for what it was. . .a hookup. A brief fling and nothing more.

When a woman is seeking a relationship, a certain path must be followed in order to "build" one. Certain steps must be taken that slowly lead the couple through a "get to know you" stage, then building off of that and leading into a "time spent" stage (w/o sex), and then building off of that if the relationship withstands those stages into a physical relationship and so on.

When those relationship building stages are skipped, and the situation heads straight for the bedroom, then it is what it is - it's nothing more than a shallow physical relationship that really doesn't have a strong foundation to stand on. Hookups do not lead to long-lasting committed relationships nine times out of ten. They lead to brief flings, short 3 month affairs and/or one night stands and nothing more.

Hookups are not setup to stand the test of time unfortunately, so one can never really expect them to lead to anything more because. . .there was nothing more there to begin with. You even said it yourself "from the beginning we only got in touch with each other late at night, when I would go to his place or he would come to mine. Or I would receive drunk text messages saying he misses me, and missed calls at 3am."

That's all it ever was - and regretfully, that's all it will ever be. It was never setup to have a long shelf life, and it was always only ever going to be brief :-(

And if you contact him, he's going to take you up on your offer. And that in no way is an indicator that he's going to settle down into a relationship, all it means is that he's willing to have sex. So if that's not what you're in it for, I'd suggest that pursuing him or reviving this periodically would be a big mistake and would only bring you pain, confusion, and do damage to your self-esteem and confidence. And as I'm sure you can tell, I'm not an advocate of hooking up for those very reasons. . .I believe that women pay a huge price emotionally for those and in the long run, they do more damage than good.

If you're seeking a committed relationship - take the path that's going to lead there in the future. If you want to go to Hawaii (relationship), you don't jump on a flight to Russia (hookup). Because when that plane lands and hits the ground in Russia (hookup), you're not going to be where you want to be, which is in Hawaii (in a relationship). When you have a specific destination that you're attempting to reach, you must follow the direct path that will lead you there :-)

Anonymous said...

Great article. I see karma coming back 100 fold to these types of men. Karma, reaping what you sow, whatever you prefer to call it, it WILL be back. You can't treat (use) people with such disrespect (I don't care who they are) and it not come back to haunt you one day.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous July 22, 2015 at 11:20 AM

I have an example of karma. I found out recently that the guy who disappeared on me got a girl from work pregnant just shortly after he ghosted me. The shotgun wedding took place when she was 8 months pregnant. (He was already going through an acrimonious custody battle with his ex-girlfriend at the time he got the girl from work pregnant.) This is what happens when you use people and are disrespectful. Karma came back 100 fold on this guy.

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous July 24, 2015 at 1:15 AM Yep, it happens all the time. It may not be immediate but eventually it does return. Now I'm sure you realize that YOU are way too good for a guy like that! Be thankful that he disappeared on you...it was a blessing in disguise! :-)

Anonymous said...

@anonymous July 24, 2015 at 10:01 AM

I thank my lucky stars everyday, it's not me stuck dealing with that guy for the rest of my life because when you have children with someone you can never get rid of them. They will always be linked to you through your child. His ex-girlfriend left him in a desperate manner: One day when he was out, she grabbed their child and headed to the airport and boarded an international flight with only their passports and some money. She left everything behind. What would drive a woman to do something like that? He disappeared on me because I did not jump right into bed with him. Truly a blessing in disguise! After seeing how this played out I became a true believer in karma.

Anonymous said...

Hi everybody,

Mirror, please, I again have a question for you. I have been corresponding with a man for about ten days. Overall, he seems to be intelligent and decent. He initiated long, in-depth e-mails (very rare on the dating site), so I responded correspondingly. He asked about relevant things including my value system. He always asked a few questions to which I responded and vice versa. In my last e-mail to him I asked him a question at the end as usual (an innocent one - how he usually spends his free time in this extremely hot weather). This time he did respond but very briefly and it was all about him without any questions for me. And he didn´t write anything about not having enough time for writing. It confused me a bit. Maybe he didn´t like something I wrote. What about your gut, Mirror? And how do you think I should respond to his last e-mail (if at all)? Frankly, I have reached the point that I dump a man at the slightest feeling something is off. And I am much less frustrated.:-) And by the way, the dating site states that there are about twice as many men as women so ladies, we have yet another reason for not selling ourselves cheaply.
Have a nice weekend,
Hopeful

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Hopeful,
"how do you think I should respond to his last e-mail (if at all)?"

Well, there are two options that come to mind. Either don't respond at all, or respond and "mirror" his last communication. If he emailed 4-6 sentences about himself, then you respond in kind with an email of similar length and topic matter and you mention 4-5 sentences about yourself or something you're involved in, send it and see what happens. If no response, move on, don't linger.

Because you can't take these guys on dating sites or their actions very seriously. There's so much distraction on those sites for both men and women that it's not unusual for a man to just drop off mid-conversation, disappear for 3 weeks, then send another email as if nothing happened. And what happens during that time is most likely, they started to engage with another woman, dated her once or twice (i.e. slept with her) - and it's your turn again LOL. That situation didn't work out, the man decided to "back burner" the woman, and now he's ready to focus on something else again.

Sounds harsh, I know - but it's the reality when dating online and even in real life. It happens more online in my opinion though which is why I warn women that online dating requires strong armor and a carefree attitude about it, looking at it more like socializing and less like dating, and not getting too wrapped up in one man. Because a lot of men online will float in and out of a lot of women's lives regularly unfortunately.

"I have reached the point that I dump a man at the slightest feeling something is off. And I am much less frustrated"

And I suggest you continue doing so - if your gut is trying to tell you something, listen to it. Now that doesn't mean that when this guy circles back around you can't talk to him again. You can. You just have to keep emotions in check, manage them and don't get attached, date and talk to others as well, observe his behavior and get to know him a little better. And once you get to know him a bit better, you'll be better informed to make the right decision for yourself and to decide if he's a keeper. Remember, he's allowed to date around. . .and so are YOU ;-) But if this becomes a habit for him, and/or he never asks for a date, never asks to call and just never really takes a step to the next level. . .then move on and cut him loose.

Anonymous said...

@Mirror
Thank you for your reply. Yes, you are right, online dating is a jungle, especially for middle-aged women in my opinion because in this age group there are actually no men who want to start a family, so most of them are just enjoying themselves and making use of whatever is on offer so to speak. With this man we haven´t even exchanged photos. I would ask him for a picture but as he seems to be backing off I have changed my mind. Okay, so I´ll mirror him - I´ll send him a short e-mail without any questions to prompt further communication and I´ll see what will happen.
Thank you again, Mirror. I needed to hear your reminder that I shouldn´t take anybody online seriously regardless how they are presenting themselves. I have forgotten about it somehow. I wish you a nice day,
Hopeful:-)

loretta said...

Since I have 2 more DM situations, I thought I'd add a comment on this thread. So, I had a nice first date with a guy two weeks ago. We had a good time, his last comment to me was, "You are awesome!" and I never heard from him again. Then, I met this other guy I could see liking a lot, a fellow writer with a steady history and a normal philosophy who didn't come off as being a drunk (haha). He went on vacation for 2 weeks, one of which I was also out of town. He kept in touch during his vacation, and said he was looking forward to date #2. I got back in town a day or so after he did, and have not heard a peep.

It's baffling. He's been active on the site where we met, and I presume he is still looking around. I am looking around, too, as usual. I don't expect him to act like I'm the only woman in the world, but I don't understand how everything I read about men says they go after what they want. Obviously, he doesn't want me that badly, because he's willing to stay out of touch for days on end. I suppose the smart thing to do if and when he "circles around" is to be to busy for him for awhile. He'll have to come up with something pretty interesting for me to get together again.

Another guy I met went on vacation for a week and never once touched base. He viewed my profile a few times, and I thought, hey, if you have time to look at me, why not say hello? When he came back to town, I put him off. He asked me to lunch, asked me to a concert, and I was unavailable for both.

Perhaps he'll learn the hard way, too. I STEADFASTLY REFUSE TO CHASE MEN! I may wind up Miss One and Only Date of the Year, but that's better than rewarding them for being lazy. I can't believe how low the men of my generation have sunk. It's a crying shame.

Anonymous said...

I couldn't agree more. Men have become lazy and shallow, and can't be bothered to please or take care of women, or respect them the way should. They'll lose out. I guess in general the good ones are already taken. :(

Anonymous said...

Hello Mirror,

I have been reading your blog for a while and it's been a real eye-opener. Thank you so much for what you do!
I still have a lot of work to do and I would love to have your advice on my current situation.

I am 25 I have met a 28 years old man online 2 months ago.

He is everything I want. Intelligent, good looking, fun, confident, athletic, great job, great family etc.

First date we went for drinks and dinner at my favorite bar.

Second date he took me to a restaurant where his friends work. Very upscale. We ate together and then joined his friends at the bar. I kissed him for the first time.

Third date we went for a drink at a place I chose, then we went for dinner again. He started getting more touchy and I was not so comfortable. I kissed him back but backed off a bit when he was too touchy.

Fourth date he invited me to his chalet. I said I was not sure I wanted to go because I felt everything was going a bit too fast for me and I would be uncomfortable going with him and not kissing him, as I know he would like to. He said he is interested in me and for him it's part of getting to know someone... then he said I could just let him know if I want to go or if I don't want to see him again. So I was like... ok... Then he called me to talk and we agreed to go just as friends.

So the next day we went to his chalet and his family was there (!) it was unexpected. We spent the whole day with his family. Two of his friends joined us as well. The first hours we did not touch or kiss, but after a moment we end up kissing and cuddling. He introduced me to everyone as his friend, but he called me love names in front of everyone and kissed me all the time in front of them. We spent the whole day and evening there. Boat tour with his parents, then hang by the pool with his friends, and then making out in the spa. He tested my limits asking to go naked in the pool but I refused. It was a great day.

I had told him I did not want to sleep at the chalet and wanted to go home so he took the car and drove us back. I realised he was very drunk and was driving very fast with very loud music. I kept lowering the music and he kept putting it louder. I also yelled at him when he almost hit a car. Everytime I told him to be careful all he could answer was "i dont care, im with the prettiest." He then parked at his place. I was mad and told him I asked to go home, not to go to his place. He looked me in the eye and said if I'm ever uncomfortable he would pay me the taxi ride back home. I know I should have gone back home but I was tired and I slept in his bed. He made a couple of attempts to touch me but I always backed off. The next morning we cuddled. He asked me to go take a shower with him I refused. When he got out of the shower he dropped his towel on the floor and tried cuddling with me naked! I said what the hell are you doing. LOL. So he put his boxers back on. Anyways I had to go back home to work on a project so he took me back. The next day I made a huge mistake and I texted him thank you for the nice day. ( I have no idea why I did that - i guess I really like him even if he made so many bad moves ) Anyways he said it was a pleasure and then ignored me for a day. I realised I gave too much to him.

So I ignored him back.




Anonymous said...

(CONTINUED)

We had made plans to do something on the weekend but I had no news from him so I made other plans and did not contact him at all.

It worked like a charm.

He started texting me to know if we were still seeing each other. I said I could not at the moment but I was free later. He agreed. He did not apologize directly for not contacting me but he said that he had been very busy even though I did not ask for a reason.

That evening he took me to another of my favorite places, he remembered I told him about this place. Then he took me to another very chic restaurant where he introduced me to the chef who is his friend ( as his friend ). I did not kiss or touch him, just like we were back to step 1. He asked me what I had been doing during the week of NC, I said not much. He said why did you not contact me? I said I thought you were busy... He also told me everything he did in the week, everyday, even if I did not ask for explanations!! I only kissed him goodnight before leaving his car.

Last time we saw each other we went biking together. He is a profesional cyclist. It was a lot of fun. We went back to his place and he asked what I wanted to eat. I said I didnt know so we went to the grocery store and cooked together. He called one of his best friends asking him if he wanted to join us but he was busy. I appreciated that because it felt like he would not be pushing for sex this night. We went back to making out mode but I still controlled how far he could go. He asked if I wanted to go to his chalet the next day, I said maybe. He said I could leave my bike at his place. I dont know why but I said ok, I dont use it often anyways. He took me back home.

The next day I was not so sure about going to his chalet because I still felt like I could not fully trust him and would not want to go too far with him at this point. So I told him I had something else and could not go.

We have not not seen each other for a week and I am not initiating anything. I feel like I need to back off to protect my emotions. He really makes me melt and I do want to have sex with him badly but at the same time I have a bad feeling.

He tried 2 attempts at contacting/inviting me but I say im not available or dont answer at all. His last message is just: "I want to see you :P :)" I dont answer that.

At this point after 1 week of not talking to him, I feel less emotional. I do still want to see him but I am not sure if it's possible to make this guy follow my pace. When I back off and put limits it does seem to work. He treats me with more respect.

Dear MOA, what do you see in this situation? Thank you so much for your help,

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Aug 1, 12:03 PM,
"I am not sure if it's possible to make this guy follow my pace. When I back off and put limits it does seem to work. He treats me with more respect."

You're already making him follow your pace - and it's already working ;-)

Don't do anything you're not comfortable with. He has no choice but to follow your pace - or he doesn't get to see you. It's that simple.

Keep doing what you're doing, because it's working ;-)

Anonymous said...

Hello,

Just thought I should share a little info on a former disappearing man who, as Mirror always says, had reappeared. Luckily by then I had lost interest so ignored him and moved on.

But there was something not quite right about him, just had a weird feeling and Mirror did point out a few times that we should listen to our gut.

Well, over a year later now and I have just seen his pictures on a dating app but... under a false name...
As this app is linked to facebook profile, he must have created a new false profile just for the dating app.

My guess is he may very well have had a girlfriend or even a wife and all this has been happening behind her back... Hence that nasty gut feeling that I had back then.

That just goes to show, some of them are worse than we imagine and I am so grateful to have dodged a bullet. Thank you Mirrror!

Just wanted to share this latest find ;-)

Damnblokes

Anonymous said...

MOA - I had posted a few weeks ago about a guy I'd been seeing that had given me the cold shoulder on a recent trip to see me and the disappeared on me after that and that I was going to see on a group trip....

The trip was last week, it started off good as he and I had a very nice discussion about everything (I was actually surprised he was being so communicative), had come to an understanding that we would take things a day a time, and had a fun couple of days flirting (nothing more). He then did a complete 180 and started ignoring me (acting disinterested, distant, etc...) (as well as ignoring everyone else who was on the trip, this was not just me), to him flirting with another woman (who had joined our group the last couple days of the trip) in front of me one of the last nights of the trip. He was drinking heavily (he doesn't drink) and "flirting", if that's what you want to call it, in front of me, he kept looking at me as if to make sure I knew he was doing it. I assume they had sex at some point.

Not sure if he wanted to get a reaction out of me or not, but I would not stoop to that level as I am a high value woman. I eventually went back to the hotel. I had to see him the next morning for an activity, I did not acknowledge him in any way, and then made sure I did not see him the rest of the day/night, and we all left the next day. I see no reason to "let him have it" and go all crazy, I assume that is what he expected, my silence is probably worse for him than anything verbal I could have said. She was quite the piece of work herself as she knew he and I had a "thing", so if he wants that let him have her.

After stepping back and looking at everything that has happened....he has depression issues and takes meds for this....his behavior on the trip (and prior as I learned some other things from his friend) was definitely a depressive episode, brought on by stress he is dealing with at home. HOWEVER, that is no excuse for treating someone that you say you care about like crap. And I refuse to allow him to bring me down ever again.

I have no desire to see or talk to him ever again, but we have another group trip coming up in January. I suspect that I will hear from him again before that trip. How exactly do I handle that?

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that needs to come out of his mouth is a sincere and heartfelt apology, nothing less will do...(although I suspect he is not capable of it as he never apologized for the cold shoulder incident) and even so, all that accomplishes is that I can be cordial to him on the trip, nothing more as he does not deserve my friendship.

Thoughts?

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Aug 4, 12:04 PM,
"I suspect that I will hear from him again before that trip. How exactly do I handle that?"

You don't handle it. Meaning, you don't respond, and you don't answer. You simply don't deal with it - at all.

And as far as his recent behavior, if this man takes anti-depressants and then consumes a depressant (alcohol), this can have some very real, very dangerous, affects. Mixing anti-depressants and alcohol never goes well:

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/expert-answers/antidepressants-and-alcohol/faq-20058231

It sounds to me as if this man is troubled, and quite possibly too troubled right now to enter into any type of healthy relationship with anyone. This stuff can be managed - but he's clearly not managing it. If I were you, I wouldn't get caught up in any of this. I wouldn't waste time, energy and resources dwelling on it, nor would I be speaking to him at any point prior to him actually getting his life under control and taking responsibility for his own actions by managing his condition properly.

If he fails to do that, he'll have trouble experiencing healthy relationships with friends, at work, romantically, etc. He'll have trouble managing his own behavior and his "stuff" will affect those around him and it will get to the point that others actually no longer enjoy being around him because of it.

Anonymous said...

From 'Huge Fan'
Hi Mirror , firstly thank you so much for your wisdom. It gives me so much strength. I would be totally clueless otherwise. I try to follow your advice exactly to the book and when i don't things go wrong. I would be grateful if you would give your outside opinion on my dilemma.

Over three months I had 8 dates with a Leo guy. I did everything to your advice, he initiated all contact and pursued me. Although he didn't call as much as i would like he kept to texting. He would always call if i said to. He didn't push for sex. And we didn't sleep together. He had the tendency to try for the lazy option of sofa dates but i was wise to it and insisted on going out. In the first month we had 4 dates , the second month 2 dates (It was a busy work month for him) the third month 2 dates and then I started to get emotionally needy because things were progressing too slowly. I said i didn't think we should meet anymore because meeting once a month wasn't working for me. He persuaded me to meet him again. The 8th time we met he was very affectionate but then when back at his house, he didn't touch me, ( he said it was because i created distance and he didn't want to push so that i would leave) anyway we started watching a film both sitting on his sofa, I suddenly got up and left because I didn't like that he wasn't being affectionate and i didn't like the film..I thought he may be emotionally unavailable. He let me go, slamming the door behind me. he thought i had been very rude. The next day we exchanged blaming texts and then he disappeared. (the longest i hadn't heard from him before was 4 days , he would usually text most days). 10 days later I called him and said I didnt like the way things had been left. And explained why i had left suddenly. He explained from his point of view and later said it was a nice call, he asked what i was doing that night, but i said i was out with a friend. The call ended on a positive note. But i heard nothing from him that night or the next day, although he was constantly on his phone texting with someone. (He always is) . This is where i have really messed up. I called him again the next day twice and both times he picked up, I asked more personal questions like did he like spending time with me, was he dating anyone, was he sleeping with anyone, did he want to try again and put 100% effort in this time. He said he didn't know. I asked why he was still using tinder and he said he didn't know if i was the one and wasn't in love with me. When the call ended he texted and ended the messages with 'talk soon' XXX' the next day he was again messaging someone all day. the following day i deleted him from all apps on my phone as well as facebook and deleted his number so that i couldn't call him in a weak moment. I felt that I had to do that to regain my dignity, it felt like I was waiting for him otherwise and being kept as an option while he chatted with other girls. This may be my fears and insecurities but I felt better doing it. Then 4 days later I re-requested his friendship on Facebook to which he has not deigned or accepted. (this was two days ago, he checks FB everyday). He has ignored me. I felt that by deleting him I shut all the doors to him and only gave him 1 day to reply. which was not patient of me. So re-requesting his friendship was offering a friend branch. He had said in the phone calls not to rush and that we should try being friends first. Anyway I know I cant make anymore attempts to contact him but I still really like him. I wonder if I have totally scared him off or if he will come round? Although to be honest he hasn't tried to fix things or responded to my attempts. Hes backed off further. Help!

Anonymous said...

Hi Mirrow, this is the first time I post online and I hope you will be able to help me. I met a guy last fall. Nothing happened except for him kissing me. I felt a really strong chemistry between us. We lived in different countries but stayed in contact via messages. Due to our schedule differences we didn’t see each other since then but in almost every message he expressed how much he wanted to see me. In mid March he disappeared. That time I didn’t know he went MIA as it was only a flirtatious contact expressing our mutual interest in one another. Besides I was really busy and didn’t really pay attention to it. I messaged him in May and we chatted about meeting up. When I provided my availability he didn’t respond at all and disappeared. It was when I realized he went MIA. I didn’t contact him. He reappeared after a month saying hi pretty girl. I didn’t reply as I was angry. After two days he sent another message asking me if I wasn’t going to talk to him with a sad smiley. That time I didn’t know about your blog and I responded the following day that it felt great to hear from him but I felt unhappy when someone doesn’t respond to me and disappears and that I didn’t want to feel that way. He responded immediately explaining he was busy etc. After a thought I wanted to give him another chance and I responded I understood and I was also very busy and I appreciated he explained me. And he disappeared again! After a month he reappeared again saying he wanted to know how I was and was sending me a kiss. I didn’t respond as I already read your blog. After 3 weeks I moved to the country where he is living as well and sent a message to all my contacts. He replied immediately within a few seconds asking what I was doing here. I didn’t respond. The following day he messaged me again asking if I wasn’t going to talk to him with a sad smiley again. I didn’t respond. After two days he messaged me again asking if I was angry with him and why I wasn’t replying to him. I was thinking to respond to him but didn’t have a chance as today he messaged me again saying it was rude what I was doing and ‘ok see you then’. How should I proceed now? I want to ask him when we will see each other. He seems to be angry with me now. Thank you!

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Huge Fan,
"to be honest he hasn't tried to fix things or responded to my attempts. Hes backed off further. Help!"

There's nothing you can do to make someone love you or want to be in a relationship with you. We all have to accept that in life. My suggestion is to take this as a lesson learned type kind of thing, turn it into a positive experience in doing so, and realizing that what you've learned here. . .is going to help you when the RIGHT man comes along.

In the meantime, put yourself back "on the market" and continue dating other men, giving this man the space and time he needs. If he should decide to circle around again, you can determine at that time if you even still WANT to speak to him. Because you may find that in the meantime, someone else has entered your life and that's no longer an option with him.

As far as this situation goes, there's nothing you can do but accept it and take from it whatever you can of value. He may or may not circle around again, but if he doesn't hear a peep out of you, he could become curious and reach out, so that would be your best bet either way. It's best for the situation, but more importantly, it's best for you so that you can detach and move on to bigger and better things :-)

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Aug 10, 2:46 PM,
"How should I proceed now? I want to ask him when we will see each other."

Why? Why do you want to see a man that's disappeared on you not once - but TWICE? And what will you do when you do see each other. . .and he does it AGAIN? Because chances are, that's exactly what he'll do because he's already exhibiting a pattern of behavior here.

Have you thought about that? Are you prepared to handle that when it happens? And is it really even worth putting yourself through this all over again to give him an opportunity to do this to you a THIRD time?

He's manipulating you by stating that you're being rude to him, when in reality, HE is the one who has been rude to YOU - more than once. And when people treat you poorly, it's not wise to reward their bad behavior with more of your time, attention and affection. Because if you do that, the message you're ultimately sending to them is that it's okay to treat you that way, because no matter what they do, you'll still be there for them - so they'll just continue doing it.

If I were you, I wouldn't respond to ANY messages from him until he either 1) apologizes to you for treating you like this and starting all this in the first place or 2) asks for a genuine "talk" where he apologizes to you, makes amends and sets things right again.

If it were me, I wouldn't give this man another ounce of my attention until I received an apology from him for treating me with disregard and taking me for granted (taking it for granted that I'd still be there even after he ignored me and disappeared).

NEVER reward bad behavior with more of your time, attention and affection - or you'll only get more of it. He was wrong, he KNOWS what he did. . .and now he's trying to manipulate the situation and pin that on you. Don't let him get away with that. He's a grown man and he knows the difference between right and wrong. . .and if he wanted to make things right, he'd apologize and address the issue here in an adult manner.

loretta said...

I'm reading a great book called "How To Mend Your Broken Heart." I got it cheap (used) on Amazon, and it has very useful advice. I don't have a broken heart, but it's good for all types of rejection and disappointment that all the women discuss on this site. Just a suggestion. I've used a few of the techniques and felt better right away. One of the techniques in getting over someone is to make a list of 5 times he (or she) did something really hurtful to you - some comment or behavior or event. I can think of about 50 for Casual Guy, but I just listed the top 5. (LOL) ...concentrate on how that feels. Let it burn for a little bit. Then shrink those things one by one into a little dot and POOF them.

When a guy disappears, and you had no significant relationship with him (which happens to me a lot these days), I am chalking it up to his notion that the grass is greener. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but he is going to keep bellying up to the babe buffet and stuff himself sick. I value my time and talent far too much to wait for him to come back and realize I was pretty awesome. His loss. NEXT!

If a guy you hardly know (like guy above) asks to be "friends," more often than not, it's a bluff. He's not really interested in a friendship. He just wants to string you along. I always tell them, "I have so many friends I already neglect, I don't need another one!"

The only reason the "friendship" thing is working with Casual Guy, in my case, is because he and I had a year of history together of which 90% was already friendship. He was a lousy boyfriend, and he's never going to be a good boyfriend to anyone. I had to reframe my relationship with him to accept him as the screwed up guy he was, know that what we were working on and our friendship was very important to him, and, ironically, I have a more intimate (not sexual) relationship with him than he has with ANYONE else. Even if he meets a girl who can put up with him, he will not have this kind of connection.

It was really difficult for me, at first. I dated other men, had lots of fun, focused on other passions and activities, took care of my family and home, stayed productive and positive, and let Casual Guy be himself. By being his friend instead of a girlfriend, I could detach from his behavior, or let him have it if he was being a jerk (not worrying if he'd ignore me for weeks, because he won't), and set goals and expectations of the work we are doing and he takes it seriously. I get to be a model of a good woman to him, a good friend and a valuable writing partner. He relies on me more and more. He lets me into his life more and more. I am non-threatening, I accept him, I care about him and I provide something no other woman in his life can (or maybe has in many years.)

The only way this "friend" thing works is if the guy really values you as a friend. If he just wants to string you along, or he's just saying that to let you down easier, it's not gonna happen. It's a waste of time.

Heartbroken Gemini said...

Hey y'all! Just an update on the DM I wrote about back around July and a new plot line. :) So it's been nearly 8 weeks and I have not heard a peep from my DM. Going no contact has been the best decision. I have made no effort to contact him. It has been tough at times, but overall, after the first three weeks, it's been fine. I do not obsess about it. Instead, when I think about him, I am more disgusted with how immature and emotionally bankrupt he behaved when he so rudely disappeared. I deserve better.

I have been going on dates with several men but most have not gone past one or two dates. However, about a two weeks ago, I met someone that I really like. I encountered him online, he asked me out, and we had a great first date. It was obvious we had great chemistry immediately and an easy, fun rapport. Our first date last much longer than it probably should have, but we did not have sex. At the end of the first date, he asked me to go out again a few days later. We had an equally great second date. We went to dinner and bowling. we fooled around a little but no sex. I have been mirroring him and refraining from initiating contact (except one birthday message). Later that week (after knowing each other for a little over a week), he started a conversation with me on text. He told me that he had recently (maybe six months ago), ended a relationship of several years. He has not really "dated" in five years because he was in a monogamous relationship and lived with her. He told me that he sensed that I want a boyfriend or a commitment of some sort before I will sleep with a man. He said he is not sleeping with anyone but he explained that if we sleep together, he would potentially continue to date (which means also sleep with) other women. He said he knows that is not what I want. (He just assumed all this because I had not brought up this topic.) He told me that he likes me and that he cared more about not hurting me than getting laid so he wanted to tell me these things. He also said that he is not a player and that other than his ex, he was not even touched another woman besides me and her in five years. I asked if that meant he did not want to date me if we do not have sex, and he said, no that was not the case. At this point, I thought, "wow, this sucks, but maybe I can try to approach this differently than in the past. What has Mirror taught me?" Mirror, I know you say talking to a man is useless and you are right. However, because he brought the subject up, I figured he was ready to talk and that I could engage him in the conversation. However, I also made an effort to remain non-emotional, detached, and logical. I told him I appreciated his candor and that I understood where he was coming from. I said that I was not saying yes to sex nor was I saying. I said maybe we can continue to spend time together and do fun things and see how it goes. At the end of this conversation, he asked me out on a date for much later this week and I said yes (He asked on Sunday if we could go out on Friday). Later on in the evening, he asked if he could stop by to see me and we went to grab a quick bite.I had a good time.

My dilemma? I know that it is foolish to expect exclusivity when you are only casually dating. I also know that it is much to early to even express an interest in not dating other. He has encouraged me to go on dates with other people, and I agree that I should. I even set up another date this week. However, I am still bothered by the idea of him seeing other women. I have decided that I should try to refrain from sleeping with him because if he is not giving me the benefit of exclusivity or a relationship (monogamy, more frequent contact), I will not give him the benefit of exclusivity or a relationship (sex).

Am I approaching this wrong? Should I be running for the hills? I enjoy his company and I know relationships take time to develop so I understand that this is what happens in the early stages of dating. I just do not want to end up with less self-esteem and feeling used.

loretta said...

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2015/08/tinder-hook-up-culture-end-of-dating

This is the most horrendous article I've read in years. The only possible solution to this nightmare is for women to cease participating. Period.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Loretta and the Ladies,
That article right there that Loretta shared - is EXACTLY what's wrong with modern day dating, and the youth in our society. Technology is making everyone so very shallow as human beings that quite frankly. . .I find folks like this all so very. . .boring. [YAWN]

Anyone can slap skin. These youngsters in that article think they're actually accomplishing some great feat there LOL. "Rack it up to 100 women." Why is that important to you? The answer to that is that's how you validate yourself as a man. Without 100 women on your list, you'd be nothing, you wouldn't be a man.

It's an entire generation that's so very INSECURE about themselves, that they go around using each other simply to validate themselves as worthy human beings. And notice the woman who says that "hookups are easier, no one gets hurt" - practically chokes on those words and the author notes it by saying she gives a "wary" look.

The definition of wary is "feeling or showing caution about possible dangers or problems."

They all think they're fooling themselves and they've got this all figured out. But their body language and subtle cues tell the truth. . .they are WARY of this lifestyle, and deep down, they know EXACTLY how damaging it is. And to see a publication like Vanity Fair publishing this garbage is even more depressing. Although I must say that Vanity Fair has been spoon feeding young women absolute shit for years. Airbrushing away flaws and making young girls feel bad about themselves because they don't look like an airbrushed version of the so-called "perfect" woman.

And these men - who in the hell is even attracted to these pompous, insecure asses?? Everyone with an ounce of intelligence knows it's a fact that BRAVADO COVERS INSECURITY. And how in the hell is racking up a scorecard with 100 women on it going to get you anywhere in life? I mean, it'll get you on the fast track to the clinic regularly with 4 visits a year curing whatever STD you picked up recently. . .but in life, seriously, where is any of that taking you? And how is any of that making you any better of a person?

I agree with Loretta and I've said it before myself time and time and time again - seriously - I cannot STRESS THIS ENOUGH LADIES. . .do NOT participate in this bullshit lifestyle. DO NOT.

These women in this article. . .will all probably need therapy in the next 5 years or so. Their confidence, self-worth and self-esteem is going to be so very damaged. They have no clue what they've done to themselves by participating in this lifestyle.

Right now, they're young and it's fun, so it appears "all good." But you wait. You wait till these women reach their mid-thirties and start wondering what's wrong with them. "Why don't I have children or a family or a man who loves me? What's my future going to be like? Why doesn't anyone love me? How can 100 men pass me over?"

That shit is going to eat them up for YEARS as they get older. And it's not just the women. Wait until these men reach their fourties. And the little girlies, the 20-somethings, are no longer interested. And they can't rack up the numbers like they used to. These guys are going to start going bald, putting on weight around the middle, and young women are going to pass them over as old enough to be their father. These guys are insecure to begin with and need a TON OF FEMALE ATTENTION to validate them as men and make them feel good about themselves.

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

You wait until they hit their 40's and the gravy train of ego boost that's been propping them up all their lives comes to a screeching halt. These men are going to hit the ground HARD and there's going to be an entire generation of grown men running around "emotionally challenged" and unable to have real relationships because they've never built up the social skills necessary to maintain one.They're going to be angry, miserable, lonely and acting out all over the place.

And then you know what's going to happen?

They're going to turn into a bunch of misogynists. They're actually going to blame their current situation later in life on all of the women THEY USED to prop them up during their youth. They're not going to blame themselves and their own behavior - they're going to blame women instead. "They're all a bunch of whores. They're all a bunch of gold diggers. If you don't have a good body or a ton of money, they don't want you." They're not going to realize that the very thing they've come to hate about women. . .is the very thing that THEY HAVE CREATED themselves. They never bothered to get to know any woman on a deeper level so obviously, they're going to look at ALL WOMEN as shallow. . .because they, themselves, have been nothing but shallow their entire lives.

And then this generation of angry misogynistic men is going to set out on the world of women with vengence and hatred.

The women are going to look INWARD and beat themselves up and wonder what's wrong with them - and the men are going to PROJECT their stuff onto those women. See where I'm going with all of this?

In the end. . .WOMEN are going to PAY A HEAVY PRICE FOR THIS LIFESTYLE.

And the young girls already feel it. They're clearly already "wary" of this lifestyle.

I'm telling you girls. . .do NOT, I repeat, DO NOT participate in this shallow lifestyle. It is not rewarding, it will not become rewarding, and it will never turn into anything rewarding - EVER - for any of the parties involved.

The hookup lifestyle will only ever lead to a future full of regrets.

Anonymous said...

But where does this leave us single girls? How can we participate in the online dating world when so much of it is based around the hookup lifestyle and so few men are courting in the traditional way? I'd love nothing more than to be a in a bar, shop, subway station and have a man approach me in a traditional way but it just doesn't happen anymore...

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Aug 13, 11:28 AM,
"But where does this leave us single girls? How can we participate in the online dating world when so much of it is based around the hookup lifestyle and so few men are courting in the traditional way?"

Well, this is where your self-worth, confidence and strong will come in. You can have 15 crappy hookup dates that lead absolutely nowhere and actually do damage and cause pain and hurt. . .or you can skip the 15 crappy hookup dates, acknowledge that this will require you to spend some time alone, and wait for the one or two really great dates, with really great men that show respect for women and act like gentlemen, that actually have a shot at leading to a real, long lasting relationship.

Because the reality is that you can pass the time with hookups, but in the end, they're not going to lead you to a relationship - so why bother? Why not just skip the hookups and wait for the men who are worthy of your time to come along? Because they will come along. The entire world is not full of men seeking hookups, good men are still out there, they're just a bit more scarce these days.

And there's a "catch" with participating in the hookup lifestyle to consider as well. When that great guy comes along, will your past haunt you? Will he find out what you've been participating in and then believe he's just another in a long line of others, thereby making him feel defeated at a real shot with you? Or will you bring the insecurities that participating in the hookup lifestyle creates into a real relationship, causing self-destructive behavior to ruin your chances with the gentleman?

It's a lot to think about, I know. And in the end, what this really all boils down to is. . .your value system and your moral code:

"A value system is a set of consistent ethic values and measures used for the purpose of ethical or ideological integrity. A well defined value system is a moral code."

Meaning, does your behavior align with your personal values and morals? Or does it go against them? Because whatever you project out into the world, is what you will draw back to yourself. So if you project loose morals and values. . .you will attract others to you that have loose morals and values. And if you project a strong set of morals and values. . .you will attract others to you that have a strong set of morals and values.

Because "like attracts like." Similar energies are drawn to one another.

So if you want to pull yourself out of the hookup lifestyle, this means you have to cease participating in it, project your strong set of morals and values, and then exhibit patience while that's at work in the background.

And this "down time" so-to-speak should not be viewed as a waste. During the down time, I strongly suggest that women love themselves and participate in the things that bring them happiness. This is where true happiness ultimately comes from. It doesn't come from others, it comes from you. You won't find your happiness in a man. He can ADD to it, but he should not BE it. The idea here is to already be "whole" when the RIGHT man comes along, so that self-destructive behaviors and insecurities have already been dealt with and cannot interfere in that. Does that make sense?

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

Because when we get ourselves "right" - and our words align with our actions and our values and morals - we become "whole." And when we become whole, we do not feel that void where a significant other would be but isn't so strongly. That void is felt strongly when there is nothing else in life to provide happiness to fall back on, and a woman has placed her entire "being" into a man - so when you remove that man from the equation, it feels like a giant void because. . .without him, there's nothing left to fall back on because your entire happiness was coming from another, and not from within yourself.

Adhering to a strong moral code does mean you won't be out there several nights a week participating in all of this behavior. . .but it does mean that at the end of the day, you can sleep well, rest well, feel good about yourself, have a strong sense of "self" (self-esteem, self-awareness, self-confidence, etc.) and get an awful lot accomplished for yourself and BY yourself in the meantime.

It's the difference between choosing to live in a constant state of anxiety, fear, self-doubt and crippling weakness. . .or living in a graceful, dignified state of contentment, confidence and peace of mind :-)

I can only speak for myself, but I cannot tell you HOW MUCH I have accomplished in life for myself - WITHOUT the distraction of the drama, pain, anxiety, grief, self-doubt and sleepless nights that comes with dating at a heavy pace as if your life depends upon it. It IS possible to experience happiness with or without a man - and when the right person finally does come along, it's even more gratifying to finally be able to share all you've accomplished in the meantime with them.

Fire&Water said...

Omg...reading that article is scary. The damage that's being done is just cringe-worthy. One thing that pops up in the article that I've been seeing a lot of lately is this term "catching feelings" ...like caring for someone else is some kind of disease! I think Loretta nailed it in one of her other comments where she said "don't sleep with them. Ever!" :) ..I've paraphrased slightly, but :) ..it does get kind of draining/frustrating/lonely/boring waiting to meet a good guy. But, it's important to keep reminding yourself that all of that is WAY (x infinity) better than the alternative.

Adriana said...

Thanks MOA for your last post. I agree completely. Your advice on this site is so valuable and after starting therapy a few months ago to deal with some issues from a previous bad relationship, I can honestly say that you could be a psychologist because what you write on here about different topics is what I'm also learning in therapy. Your site is a great resource for those that can't afford therapy and need some good advice about relationships and self-esteem. I've been reading your site for more than 2 years and I really appreciate the time you invest to help others. I'm still working on moving on from a bad relationship but I'm willing to wait until I've worked on myself and until a quality guy comes along.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Heartbroken Gemini,
"Am I approaching this wrong? Should I be running for the hills?"

This is indeed the correct approach, and he WILL respect you for this ultimately, even if the situation ends up not being a match for other reasons beyond sex.

He didn't have to say these things to you, yet he did. And for that, he's proving to you - through his actions (of not attempting to pressure you) - that he already respects you, and that's a good thing. You should be thankful for this because a lot of women don't receive this type of honesty or respect from men they've only recently met.

"I know relationships take time to develop so I understand that this is what happens in the early stages of dating. I just do not want to end up with less self-esteem and feeling used."

You can't feel used - if you don't permit anyone to use you ;-)

Let him date others while he's seeing you, who cares? Cause you know what, if it's meant to be, it will be. Him dating others could actually help you believe it or not. Because once he's out there in "cray cray land" in the online dating world, he's going to take some "hits" himself. And each time he does, he'll think of the one stable, steady presence in his life that he has no drama with - YOU.

And that can actually bring him around to you until eventually, he decides he's seen what there is to see, wants no parts of it, and is ready to settle down again - with someone stable and drama free - YOU.

Now I'm not saying that is what's going to happen here, but I AM saying that it can happen, and I've seen stuff like this happen. So send him off into "cray cray land" and the online dating world, wish him luck. . .and then be patient, ALWAYS, because chances are if you do that - he'll come running right back LOL ;-)

"I am still bothered by the idea of him seeing other women."

Don't be. What do other women have that you don't? Nothing. And if he ends up with someone else, that's because it wasn't meant to be and nothing you did, didn't do, or could've done - would change that.

So have faith that what's meant to be - will be - and find peace in that.

Anonymous said...

Hi there MOA

Id like your thoughts on women and their behaviour. Im a woman and I cannot believe how promiscuous and aggressive some women are today. Ill be in groups of women and they are just throwing it away....blowjobs on the first dates etc and they think its funny. Its messed up and I feel that's why so many guys are being lazy selfish, assholes too, they don't have to do a thing. I wish women would lift their game and you would write a big speel about what you think is going on. Id hate to think what the dating scene will look like for our little boys and girls with all these 'easy to pick up' dating apps and sites.

Thanks Karen

Anonymous said...

Hello MOA, I just wanted to say I cannot understand why men think it is acceptable to just suddenly do a disappearing act with no explanation; it's just so disrespectful. I had been dating a guy (not exclusively) for nearly 4 months and I did sense things were slowing down a bit but haven't heard from the guy now for 2 weeks and haven't seen him for a month- literally no reason provided, nothing. We had pencilled in a date when he was free as he was really busy with work but haven't heard from him. I met him online and I know he's been back on the dating site, even uploading new photos. I have decided to try and forget this guy and date other people in the hope that I meet someone who shows me respect and wants to spend time with me- got 2 dates for next week! I have a feeling this guy just likes the chase of dating and then once he thinks he's got the girl, he moves on. I pity the guy to be honest and secretly hope he does go on other dates and realises what he's lost with me!

Anonymous said...

I cannot appreciate enough about how reading MOA's posts has completely changed my life.
I was once a clingy, needy, insecure, frustrated falling apart woman who was so defeated by recent dating experiences.
I've been visiting MOA's site several times a day just to find my inner peace, I started pulling together and being more relax about the whole dating situation. Slowly I got my confidence back, focus on myself rather than stressing out on my guy. I'm like a different person now, I'm much more happier and see all the positive things in my life. Although I'm still having rough time with my boyfriend, I don't give a damn anymore. Because whenever my insecurity kicks in, I'll come to read your posts and I calm down quickly and stop over reacting like a crazy girl. So, thank you very very much MOA, you have no idea how your site has helped me to love myself again.
Love, Sophia

loretta said...

@Heartbroken Gemini - I don't think you'll be heartbroken if you play it cool with Mr. Casual. You already have an advantage over the "competition," which Mirror accurately describes as "cray cray". So true. First, this guy may not get any casual sex out there in the wild, either. He may face a lot of rejection, or meet women who misrepresent themselves (happens a lot), or women who are immediately KLINGON like dryer sheets. And you will look better and better.

Supposedly, according to the mass of literature on men I've read (too much), men's greatest fear is losing their freedom. I suspect there's some truth in this. Your new suitor is afraid to lose his freedom if he commits to you, even if you are the greatest thing he's met online or off. Give him lots of rope. Date other guys. Several things may happen: he will circle back and take the actions necessary to commandeer more of your time, thus taking you out of the dating pool that way. Or, he may find someone he likes better, and you have not lost your dignity. Or, you may meet someone you like better and who isn't interested in looking for that illusive greener grass. Not all guys like dating a lot of women. Most of the men I meet online are looking for one woman to date, and don't like the risk and discomfort of meeting strangers. Now, that doesn't mean I like them back, but they're out there. Also, consider that this guy and others you meet are dragging in their old experiences with women and assuming you are going to be the same. When you demonstrate you are different - not clingy, not bossy, not looking for his approval, not bending to accommodate him, not invading his privacy or making demands on him, not trying to change him....you will stand out. I wish that weren't the case. I wish all women were strong enough to resist the need to win over a man's affection. If they were, men would really have to step it up! The world would change for the better.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Karen,
Well, the bottom line is - as women, we ARE responsible for this mass entitlement that many men feel nowadays about free access to a woman's body without lifting a finger for her.

I know this is a controversial subject, but I stand behind that opinion, and granted, it's only my personal opinion. But it's hard to argue the facts and the fact is - if women did not participate in this lifestyle, men would have no CHOICE but to up their game and come straight as gentlemen to get what they wanted.

It's really that simple. This is happening - because women LET IT HAPPEN.

They don't demand more for themselves, they're not standing up for themselves, they think "less" of themselves and for some crazy, unknown reason - women are rolling over and accommodating these types of wishes of men as if men are the only ones who have any say-so in the matter. Many women say things like, "But what are you supposed to do? This is what men expect, they won't date you if you don't do this."

Well I say - hey, too bad. Then I guess the men don't get to date then, huh?

I don't look at it as if the women are the ones who would lose, I look at it as if the MEN are the ones who would lose. If the majority of women developed that attitude and that self-respect for themselves then the men would have no choice - they'd have to do it the way women expect it to be done, or they wouldn't get to participate in the dating world.

But instead, as women, we've somehow rolled over, played dead, act helpless as if we've got absolutely no say in the matter - and basically spoon feed these men our bodies on a platter the minute they snap their fingers. And then run around saying, "Where have all the good men gone!"

We've spoiled them - they're now rotten. That's what happened.

We catered to their every whim and now, they've got the power because as women we barely struggled to even hold onto it or stand up for ourselves. Men pushed, and instead of women pushing back - they just fell over. It really pains me to say these things but it's the truth.

And you know what the really IRONIC part is? WE ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE SOMETHING THEY WANT - the va-gi-gi. You'd think we'd be smart enough to realize that ultimately WE hold the power, right? Nope. Instead, as women we tend to act like the power lies in the mans acceptance of us, instead of what we posses for ourselves.

It's like we're saying, "Oh - he has the power to reject me - and I need his acceptance to validate my self-worth." Instead of us having the attitude of "Hey - I hold the power - and I can reject you if you prove your'e unworthy - because I know my value, and I have something YOU want that makes me even more powerful."

The power is not in the man's acceptance - the power is literally right between our legs LOL!!

We have what THEY WANT, yet we place absolutely no value on that whatsoever and we freely give it away, thereby making it even more worthless to men because it's in high supply.

It's the Law of Scarcity:

- When something is in low supply, it's value goes through the roof (think diamonds, the latest tech gadget at Christmas that everyone wants but there aren't enough of, etc.) and everyone is clamoring to get at it.

- When something is in high supply, it's value topples and gets driven into the ground and it is seen as valueless and worthless.

As women, we have created a high supply world of sex - and this has driven down the overall value of commitment for men. They no longer need to commit to receive sex because sex is everywhere for free. As a result, commitment is worthless to them.

But imagine is we made sex scarce and in low supply - men would be forced to up their game and seriously consider commitment in order to receive sex regularly. Suddenly, the idea of commitment would look incredibly valuable to them, because something very precious and scarce comes along with it.

Anonymous said...

Hi Mirror and everybody,
I like your previous posts and I just want to share something with you. Recently I have googled my ex-boyfriend from twenty-five years ago. At that time, after dating me for two years, he started the disappearing act and finally we officially broke up. We were young and he wanted to become rich and successful. He was one of my bad choices - he didn´t love me and I felt miserable although less unhappy than with some other men because I wasn´t that into him either. I was young and naive and believed that it would change. He was all about money and success. Recently I remembered him and googled him on the internet - I wanted to see what he looks like now but I didn´t find any pictures. However, I came across information about his business - yes, he did become rich and successful, has a beautiful house in one of the best parts of the city... Presumably married with children (I don´t know for sure but the house is big enough for a large family). I am at my parents´now writing this while sitting at the same table at which I used to sit when we were dating so I am feeling a bit nostalgic. No husband or children, not even a boyfriendLOL. It´s strange but I am glad in a way. I still have my freedomLOL. Of course, I am a bit sorry for myself, how naive I was. The reason I am writing this is to remind (especially less experienced women) that if they are looking for a serious relationship they really shouldn´t jump into bed with a man too quickly (as Mirror has said many times) and should listen carefully to what he has to say. I remember this man talking about money, money and money and he was also extremely impressed by the type of women who can earn and spend a lot of money (which I am not) and I just didn´t listen to him. I am sure that if he is married, he married a very money-minded woman. As for me, he had some fun with me (used me) and when he didn´t need me, he disappeared. So ladies, when a man disappears, never doubt yourselves - whether you are good in this or that respect. The reason for his disappearance might be completely different from what you think, like in my case it was impossible for me to make him feel satisfied when his priority (at least at that time) was money.
Have a nice weekend and don´t worry about men too much, they are not worth it. Because a good one won´t make you worried in the first place.:-)
Hopeful

Gem50 said...

@ Loretta and the ladies,
I can't find which subject of Ms. Mirror's you posted it on now, but the article link you recently shared Loretta of hook-ups made me sick. I couldn't get past the first few paragraphs. No matter how many times I read this type of stuff, the pointed and direct disregard towards human decency is always a surprise to me -- it's very sad and disgusting, and physically makes me feel sick.

I hope all women read that article and find it within themselves to say no, nope, natta, naw, um negative, nil, no, no, no to these guys and instead say yes, yep, absolutely and Hoorah! to their choice to take care of themselves first.

I haven't been able to shake the portion of that article that I did read, and over the past couple of days wondered how to get the message to these young woman that their bodies are not to be used, rather they are temples to be protected and adored.

I came back to the biological difference between men and women, and more specifically, child bearing. Female bodies are sacred. We have the power to conceive and grow another human inside of us. (just take a moment to think about that -- really think about your body's ability to build and bring another human being into this world -- and how this ability is connected to so many other things: grace, love, strength, sacrifice, nourishment, the future, etc .) Some of us choose not to bear children and these female biological attributes remain -- this is more proof of our power. We own it all ladies.

Don't let these jamokes play you or make you think that you need them to be happy or to feel loved or fulfilled. You don't. They need you to feel those things. They. Need. You. To. Feel. Those. Things.
The many comments left here by women detailing the poor behavior of so many men proves this point. Many jump from one woman to another looking to be filled by something the woman has. Her Power. Many circle back around weeks, months, years after treating a woman poorly because they want something from her. Her Power. Many treat women poorly because they are insecure and want what the woman has. Her Power.

Just think about it ladies. Be choosey. Do the work. You owe it yourself and your future self.

Hugs to all

Anonymous said...

Could use some advise on this one please Mirror?

I ran into a recent ex of mine yesterday... (3 months ago we broke up). Back story is he Treated me well and we made each other very happy but was told about 8 months into the relationship that my feelings were stronger than his and he couldn't match them...well I found out about 3 weeks later he was sleeping with someone new (real reason for the breakup in my opinion, I knew they had been talking) and I called him out on lying...angry words were exchanged, long story short we said we wouldn't be friends because we couldnt speak to each other maturely and he didn't want to hear from me again, ended in a very angry huffy goodbye. From then on I just went straight no contact for 2 months.
Yesterday he showed up at the gym I am usually at (there are 2 locations of that gym but we agreed when breaking up he would go to one and I would go to another so we wouldnt have to run into each other). Anyway he seemed really eager to catch up and make conversation, asked what I've been up to, how's my family, how's school, etc. just asking about near every damn aspect of my life, except dating. I asked a bit about him but didn't delve into his life much (I know he's still seeing that girl from a few months ago, and I don't care to know more about THAT). He also kept going on about all the things he's been up to and how much he's been working out and such. I also mentioned I was moving back home (to the same neighbourhood he is in now). He then tried to workout with me but I was just like "anyway, nice to see you, gonna get back to my workout, bye" and walked off to another part of the gym.
He was there with his friend and I saw they were about to leave so good riddance, but then he came around to the part of the gym I was in, announced he was leaving. I said bye (again!!) and then he said, if you want to workout together sometime, let me know, you still have my number right? You didn't rip it up and burn it? Which caught me off guard. I just replied I'm sure I have it around somewhere (we had travelled together in the past, it was hard for me to lie and say I didn't have it, although I really wish I had!!) And he was like great, I'll see you around then.. Everyone was watching, and they knew we dated in the past...it was so awkward so I just gave him a hug and said bye. As I was pulling away he was like "you look good".
Is this one even worth following up with as a friend Mirror? Definitely hopes he regrets losing me...but I don't understand why he would offer to hang out and work out together when he has his new gf? If my boyfriend was working out with a recent ex I would be pissed...so I don't get it. He isn't the cheating type (not physical anyway) so I don't think he is trying to get into my pants. But why befriend me 3 months later? And now the ball is technically in my court (although he DEFINITELY still has my number)...what is the best course of action? Part of me is saying if he was serious, even if I didn't say anything he would come around and seek me out, no?

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Aug 19, 12:36 AM,
"Is this one even worth following up with as a friend Mirror?"

Probably not - particularly if you've got some residual feelings for him. Think of yourself here. Being around him may only cause you to experience self-doubt, confusion and anxiety. Additionally, I don't think his girlfriend would appreciate you working out with her boyfriend and quite honestly, his actions here are very questionable.

Think about it - how would YOU feel if your boyfriend went hunting down his ex girlfriend asking to workout with her, asking if she's got his number and then complimenting her? Not good, and you don't need any drama, ya' know?

Things are probably not so rosy in their relationship right now, may be going through a rough patch, and he's sniffing around hoping you'll chase him so he has something to fall back on. NEVER be someone's second best ;-)

"I don't understand why he would offer to hang out and work out together when he has his new gf?"

EXACTLY. Is this guy REALLY relationship material? Not so sure about that. And you may want to thank your lucky stars you didn't end up with him because if this is any indicator to how he behaves in relationships, it's not a good sign. He's either seeking a "Plan B" girl OR they're near a break up and he's seeking to make a smooth transition into a new situation without skipping a beat. And if that's the case, it signals that he's insecure and afraid to be alone. . .even if for only a few weeks or months.

If someone can't spend a few weeks or months alone with themselves. . .then why would anyone else want to spend a few weeks or months WITH THEM. LOL ;-)

"If my boyfriend was working out with a recent ex I would be pissed"

Yep, exactly.

"But why befriend me 3 months later?"

Possibly for the reasons I've just stated above - insecure, fear of being alone, near a breakup, looking for a smooth transition, looking to arrange "Plan B". . .something's coming down the pike and he's making preparations.

"And now the ball is technically in my court"

If I were you, I'd be seriously tempted to just throw the damn ball out the window LOL. Again, is this REALLY a guy that's cut out for a committed relationship? If if this is how he behaves when in one, or experiencing a rough patch in one - do you REALLY want this man as a boyfriend anyway?

"what is the best course of action?"

NO action is the best course here.

Because as you've stated, if he's truly serious. . .this will just be the first of many attempts. Beside, in the meantime you need to take a few moments to think about the behavior you're seeing from him right now and ask yourself if you even think this man's truly cut out for anything long term.

Because who knows. . .you may review this and think, "Oh hell no, he'll never have the opportunity to do to me what he's doing to his girlfriend right now!" LOL ;-)

Anonymous said...

Keep doing what you're doing, because it's working ;-)
////

Hi Mirror,

I wrote to you not too long ago about this man (hes 28 im 25) I am seeing since june. We have had about 8 dates now, we kiss and makeout but I slow him down when he touches me too much and we have not had sex yet.

I ignored him a couple of days after he went too far when we went to his chalet, and it helped to slow things down. He then treated me very well and took me to gentleman dates.

There is still something that annoys me a lot. It seems like he refuses to give over his power on the relationship. Like he does not want to be vulnerable. For example, instead of saying "Do you want to go out with me thursday?" like a mature, gentleman, he will say "so are you still busy all week? (laughing emoji)" and things like that.

The last time we saw each other he wanted to do something relax. There was a show at the park close to my place so we went there with a blanket and I brought candies lol and we just enjoyed the show, laughed and kissed. It was sweet.

He asked me if I was free for the weekend to go to his chalet and I said I would let him know if I was available.

A couple of days later I realized I was still not ready to spend a night with him and that it would be better for me to refuse to go. So I told him I had too much things to do during the weekend and I would not come. He tried to convince me and then he said "fine, let me know when you are free." I said "ok" and I stopped texting him.

He did not contact me for 1 week. So I did not contact him either.

Today he texted me "how are you miss? :)" I said "Im good you?:)" Then he joked around about me being very busy,... and invited me indirectly in that immature way I was talking you about.

Now I do want to see him but I feel like the ball is in my court now? Like he really waits for me to say "I am available monday, are you?"

Can I tell him when I can see him at this point? Or should I make him wait again?

I am still interested in him. I don't know if he just wants sex or if he is still just testing me and seeing where this goes...

What do you think Mirror?

Thank you very very much,

Anonymous said...

I have a hunch my guy has pulled back.

We're long distance right now, so it's not like we could see each other all the time and so we talk and text daily. We both have been of the mind that the distance sucks, but it's only temporary at worst and we'd make the best of it and communicate as much as we can.

So the past week, I was pretty busy for work and felt badly that I had to keep conversations relatively short, but I know that he understood. We talked on the phone a bit earlier in the week. He was going out with a friend from work and said he would keep in touch during the night. I sent him a text a while later asking if he had made it to where he was going. No response. It wasn't a big deal because I figured he just got busy enjoying his time, but then I didn't hear from him the next day or the next day after that. It seemed odd to me because he'd always check in even if he's busy as well (he probably initiates 98% of our conversations). At first, I was worried that something bad happened, but I got over that pretty quickly.

I know he's been under some stress at work, which he's shared with me voluntarily, and just thinking about life in general. I've told him numerous times he can talk to me about anything whenever he needs to -- I don't necessarily expect him to, but I do want him to know that I support him as he always does when I have a bad day or just need an ear.

This sudden disappearance makes me feel as if he realized he just needs to work on his own stuff for a bit. My thought is that I should do the same and take the time by being supportive enough to give him space to work that out. He'd do it for me if I asked of it of him.

But here's my question -- from your experience, how long might I expect this to go on? I don't plan to contact him in the meantime.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Aug 21, 9:10 PM,
"how long might I expect this to go on?"

Everyone's different, everyone's situation is different. But generally speaking, could be anywhere from a week to three months. The one month mark, 30 days, is a somewhat magical number for some reason regarding relationships, but that doesn't necessarily mean all will be resolved within a few short weeks.

Lottie said...

Hi Ms Mirror/Everyone,

I refer back to the article that Loretta had posted. I didn't read the entire article because I got the gist quite early on and I didn't think that there would be a huge turn of events at the end.
To think that people aspire or take part in this type of lifestyle made me quite sad.

You see I think men do not want to behave like this and women most certainly do not want to be treated in this way. But society and media has blurred the lines so much that many of the old fashioned values have now diminished.... so much so, that people cannot even remember what they stood for and why they were there in the first place.

However, I know in my recent dating experiences that men DO actually want to be the Gentleman. These one night stands etc do have an effect on their masculinity as well [Although they would never admit it even to themselves.]

They want to be the hero, not the Lothario. They want to be respected. They want to feel like a man.
We have to give them a chance at playing this role. Give them the opportunity to 'Man Up'. Let them earn the right to even kiss you, let alone anything else.

You have to be strong in yourself to not accept this behaviour, but you will be the different one. Even if it doesn't work out, they will most certainly remember you.

Anonymous said...

God thank goodness for you Mirror. After a few days to think about it and your sound advice I can say without a doubt, this one is NOT worth pursuing as a friend, or anything really.
(Anonymous with the shady ex from Aug 19th)...just wanted to report some updates. After you laid it out like that, I fully realized this guy could do the exact same thing he is doing to his current gf, to me his ex. I never contacted him after he basically hunted me down at my gym and asked if I still had his number and wanted to work out.
I find it sad really. I mean he originally really wanted to work on himself but I can see plainly he just can't be alone because he is too insecure with himself.
I heard through the grapevine of our mutual friends we work out with that a few days after he saw me at the gym (this is a rock climbing gym by the way), he started posting up pics of our travels together... apparently current gf was pissed/insecure about it (in all fairness, who wouldn't be?). And was already angry that he hadnt taken her to my gym with him that day I saw him. To appease her, he took her out rock climbing this weekend for the first time. Seriously? It's funny, when we broke up he had asked me to workout (climb with him), I said I was busy and that night they hooked up and began their relationship... it seems the same thing here, I didn't chase him as he wanted me to, to hang out and climb together and as a result he is now trying to get her into the sport and climb with her. I feel terrible because it's like she is being chosen as secnd best every time and has no idea that this is going on. I feel like I should not care because she was flirting with him when he was with me, but god I just feel so sorry for her at this point. It's not fair to her, its not fair what he is doing to himself, it all seems like a farce.
Anyway, just wanted to say a huge thank you Mirror for helping me dodge that bullet!! I suppose even if I see them at my gym now I'm just going to be kind and civil to them both...I mean there's nothing more I can do, right?

loretta said...

To make up for that toxic article I linked (better to know about these things, however unpleasant), I am recommending a book that will make you feel GREAT instead of horrible: The Mastery of Love: A Practical Guide to the Art of Relationship - available on Amazon in various formats. I read through it twice. I am happy that I have managed to understand a lot of what this book covers, but I can always use improvement, especially in the way I react to things that I don't want. I need only to change myself, clean up my side of the street (so to speak) and love myself. It is very freeing to be better every day at removing expectations and loving for the sake of loving. I think my relationship with Casual Guy has taught me a lot, and it is all good.

Just because your partner, child, family member, friend, lover, etc are broken, you can heal yourself. They may or may not get a clue about that, but you do no harm to them. Maybe they eventually realize that they are only hurting themselves with their behavior and bad habits. You may be a light to them. Just be that light.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8/21 again --

So, he essentially did dump me. I wrote an email for just some sort of closure - I pointed out that I thought he was a good person and wished him well. If he ever needed someone, he could turn to me. The basis behind that statement is that I feel he's been very stressed.

I didn't think he'd answer -- I was wrong. In short, I think he's not doing so well either over the whole thing. He feels that things just aren't right at the moment for us. (He said he hopes to write more today).

I'd liken it to meeting the right person at the wrong time. I have no way of really knowing right now until he says anything more, but think a lot of it has to do with the distance. We both said we'd never do long distance before we met, but maybe he realized he really can't.

In addition, I wonder if maybe he feels like he's not on solid footing right now. Some articles suggest that when a man isn't feeling quite like himself, it will make him do rash things (ie a break-up) and then run. It makes me sad to think he'd throw in the towel so easily rather than figure out how we could get through this.

It doesn't seem like this is goodbye for good, but I know I need to institute 30 Days NC to give him time to really think about it and work on whatever he needs to work on. I will also do the same. I had talked about making a career change and I'm still moving forward with it whether he's part of my life or not. I know a few friends who have gone through the same thing and gotten back together, so who knows, maybe I'll be one of the lucky ones.

Anonymous said...

Hi MOA. Question for you. I met this guy a few weeks ago. We exchanged numbers. He text me tonight saying he knew it was last minute, but asked what I was doing tonight. I told him I was getting my kids ready for their first day of school. I asked if he could do Wednesday or another night. His response... Maybe Wednesday after the gym. Can I let you know? How do you respond to that? Who even knows what time he is going to the gym and I guess he expects me to sit on stand by? What are your thoughts? It already feels like game playing. Thanks Mirror

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Aug 25, 1:17 AM,
"How do you respond to that? Who even knows what time he is going to the gym and I guess he expects me to sit on stand by? What are your thoughts? It already feels like game playing."

He's keeping you on "stand-by." Meaning, when it's convenient for him, he'll decide. He's not giving any thought to the fact that YOUR time is valuable as well.

I wouldn't respond to that at all. And if he doesn't have firm plans that he's committed to for a date fleshed out 3 days in advance and in place. . .I would NOT be available to him.

If you want him to be respectful of your time as well, then you can't accommodate his last minute requests. If you do, he'll treat you as if you're on stand-by for him all the time.

Instead, use the 3 day rule. If he wants to see you on Wednesday, he has to make firm plans and commit to them by Sunday evening. If he wants to see you Saturday, he's got to have firm plans in place by Wednesday.

If that doesn't happen - then you're busy and you've already made other plans (whether you have or not, that's what you do).

That way, he gets the message. You're in demand, others want your time as well, you're a real catch, your time is valuable too - and if he wants a slice of it, he's got to make firm plans in advance, otherwise you're not available ;-)

Gem50 said...

Hi all,
Big Foot alert! Virgo was from mid-west who popped back into my life last year, drove his car 1K miles to see me over July holiday, was going to prove himself to me, stayed for a week, things just went downhill each day then he POOF'd and drove his sorry ass home earlier than planned, splitting when I was at work.

Anyway the only thing I did/said to his few texts about shipping his clothes back to him after he left was including in the box a note that said, "I wish you had had enough respect for me for us to talk before you left."

That was last July. I haven't said a peep since and neither has he... until yesterday. He sent me a text yesterday that said, "Hi"

You know what I did about his text? Nothing. Do you know what I am going to do if he sends another text? Nothing.

To make this easier for me, I have decided to take this as he mistakenly sent it to me when it was intended for another. When I told my daughter this, she asked, "But do you think that is what really happened?"
I told her it didn't matter; it's the story that I like.

Like so many of the woman here, I've lived my life always thinking of others. I'm learning and understanding why more, but not doing something to make HIM feel better and alleviate his anxiety is still not comfortable for me. The "mistaken text" works for me. Relieves me of self-imposed guilt and helps me see clearly.

So ladies, when these guys disappear, do not react. It'll drive them nuts. lol


Anonymous said...

Thanks, Mirror. That's what I thought he was doing with that stand-by, can I let you know remark. I told him that it would be too late for me by the time he got out of the gym and to have a good workout lol he said it would only be 30 minutes. I certainly don't workout for only 30 minutes! I will use the 3-day rule with him. Thanks so much for your guidance.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Gem50,
Not surprising in the least from this man LOL. Heck, this may even become a regular "touch base once at the same time of year" type thing from him.

What's funny is that he apparently decided this situation wasn't for him, so much so that he slipped away like a coward when you weren't there. . .only to return a year later. Which begs the question - if it was so bad that you had to run like a thief in the night, then why return? Why come back for more LOL?

Why attempt to churn up a "round two" here?

I agree, no response necessary. If you feel this isn't a match, it's not worth your time because chances are, he's seeking "reassurances" from you right now. . .that you're still there should he decide to return. And you don't need anymore "thief in the night" disappearances LOL ;-)

Lottie said...

@Gem50,

I recall you telling this story first time around. I can't believe it is a year already. That's incredible that he has tapped you on the shoulder. However, I love your attitude to the whole situation more. Go girl!

I haven't dated in a while, nor am I on any dating sites. My life is pretty full right now, doing lots of things I really enjoy doing and I have made an abundance of new friends and my social life is rocking [which I still can't seem to fathom how that all happened!] So being single is certainly not to shabby for me right now.

Best wishes to you all.
Lottie x

Gem50 said...

@Ms. Mirror,
Virgo showed me what he's made of. I will not give him the chance to behave the way he has with me again.

There must be something in the air... Oy!






The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@The Ladies,
Pay heed to Lottie's words:

"My life is pretty full right now, doing lots of things I really enjoy doing and I have made an abundance of new friends and my social life is rocking [which I still can't seem to fathom how that all happened!] So being single is certainly not to shabby for me right now."

Once she stopped seeking happiness from others, and instead began to seek it within herself. . .her lifestyle, her mindset, her social life and her outlook skyrocketed to the point that she's enjoying life so much right now, and receiving so much happiness from it. . .that finding a man is no longer the main priority now.

And because of that - she'll probably meet someone within the next 3 - 6 months LOL ;-)

Thanks for sharing that Lottie!

Fire&Water said...

@ Lottie
" My life is pretty full right now, doing lots of things I really enjoy doing and I have made an abundance of new friends and my social life is rocking [which I still can't seem to fathom how that all happened!]"

If you figure it out, would you mind sharing? :) .. I'd be interested to know what you did.

@Gem50
Wow - amazing how they pop back up, huh? Stay strong, girl - look how far you've come!..I think there was a time you would have very much felt you needed to answer that. Go you!

Anonymous said...

@Gem50
What a surprise!LOL. This Virgo man must have been contemplating his text for quite some time. I sense he feels embarrassed and guilty about how things ended between you last summer and doesn´t know what to write. But on the other hand, he could have at least written "How are you doing" or something along those lines so I agree that his text isn´t worth answering.

Mirror, Ladies, I must vent to you. About ten days ago I met a new man online and everything went in accordance with Mirror´s teaching. We exchanged short e-mails every day, then we exchanged photos, he wrote he liked me and would like to meet me in person, so we exchanged phone numbers and then... he resumed writing e-mails, no phone call. So after an about three-day further exchange I wrote to him that we can discuss it (a question he asked) verbally. He replied "Okay, I´ll phone you tomorrow or rather the day after tomorrow evening". (A little strange answer but I still believed him). And now it´s the day after tomorrow evening and... nothing, crickets on his side. I am soooo disappointed. I know that it was nothing but a short e-mail exchange but he seemed normal. We share similar hobbies and I thought we might go cycling together (the cyclist disappeared about two months ago after we had an argument but we were only "friends" or rather cycling buddies as you might remember, so I don´t care so much). Apparently, this new man will be married or something. Well, that´s online dating:-(

Thank you for listening to me. I don´t know if Hopeful is still the right name for me:-(.
Have a nice day:-)

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Hopeful,
It's okay dear - take the hit on the chin, cover the bruise with some strong foundation, put on some lipstick and mascara. . .and hold your head high. Your value as a woman does not come from men or their approval or acceptance of you, it comes from within you.

Your value is high - so you hold that head high, too ;-)

Besides. . .you'll probably hear from this fool again anyway LOL.

loretta said...

One of my disappearing men reappeared today, after over 3 weeks of silence. I left him a voice mail earlier in the week, since I had not heard anything from him and he was not on the site where we met, either. He finally texted me, told me he was commuting to another town every weekend to help his sister with a new business, la la la, and said he wanted to meet again. I responded with some updates on my current events (my father just passed away, my daughter is going back to college, etc.) and he was quite sweet about the whole thing. Then, even after saying how he liked and wanted to see me again, nothing planned.

So, I will continue doing what I'm doing - working, writing, painting, training my staff, getting ready for a busy season coming up, and not worry whatsoever about him. If he has gone all this time without meeting anyone else, I'd be surprised. It's more likely he did meet others, but they didn't measure up. He's circling back. We only had one date, so I'm not invested in this at all. Should be interesting. Do I even want to meet him again? Depends on how much he pursues me after reconnecting. If he goes tepid again, no. Like I said before, if after meeting me, testing how much greener the grass is, and then not saying, HELL YEAH about me? Don't waste my time. Next?

Anonymous said...

Hi Mirror and the Ladies,

I guess I just need to let out my emotions to my current situation in a place where people will understand...

I have actually gone physically sick because of the emotional stress I have felt dating this man.

It was like a rollercoaster ride and I followed Mirror's advices to keep some control over the situation and show how I wanted to be treated and courted....

When he came back and acted like a gentleman I would feel so powerful and so good. I never did anything I was not 100% comfortable with. Never slept with him because it was too soon for me.

I thought I was doing great and I could feel my confidence growing and affecting my whole life (work , friendships, family ) positively.

But then he stopped coming back. It has now been 1 week of not hearing from him, and anytime I get on the dating site he is online, and we dont talk.

This feeling of having lost him. That he took me to fancy dinner dates, kissed me in front of his friends, took me to his chalet where we hung out with his friends and family.... all that just for sex?? This feeling of not being good enough to keep him around and treating me right.

I am now sick, stuck in bed, feeling low... I know that it will pass but at the moment it is hard I have to admit.

Thank you for this website. I go back everyday and read comments. I have learned a lot.

Gem50 said...

@ Lottie, Thanks, and you keep at it as well!

@ Fire&Water, Yes, I've come a long way, or rather I think I've found my way again. Ms. Mirror is right, we have to find ourselves and our joy must be our core, rather than being fed happiness externally. I remember when Ms. Mirror first gave me that direction. I thought, "how the F do I do that?" lol I decided to just not DO anything and take the time to simply BE. It's been ALOT of quiet alone time, ALOT of contemplation, ALOT of stillness, ALOT of reading, ALOT of keeping my mouth shut and watching, and ALOT of patience and love for myself. It's also been ALOT of yard work and focusing on what makes ME happy on the weekends.

I've said this before and I think I will keep saying it -- it's not easy, and it's WORK. But it's worth it.

@ Hopeful,
I've been on a dating site for 3 months now, and haven't matched with one guy. If you missed it, check out Ms. Mirror's Online Dating article for a comment from me about a month ago about me meeting an Author. I thought this guy would be normal, and from his book, I thought it would at least be an interesting meeting. Well, he turned out to be a NUT! which goes to show we can't form an opinion of anyone until we've met them in person and observe their actions.

The good news is that I held my own; and I became stronger as a woman sitting across from him using only my grace to prevent him from bullying me.

I'm not giving up quite yet; my purpose was to use the site to get my pic out "there" so if guys see me locally they will know I am single and maybe a good guy will have the gumption to start up a conversation.

I agree with Ms. Mirror that you will probably hear from him again. You've already seen he's the disappearing type -- I suggest you do the same to him when he contacts you. And don't block him -- let him see you have been active on the site, and it'll drive him crazy that you haven't responded.

There was one guy I went out with when I first tried online dating, the guy who said he was keeping a "scorecard" during dinner. Well, he's still on and his most recent pic looks horrible -- he looks like an old lady! He looked at my profile 3 months ago, no big deal. But I've noticed he has been viewing my profile more often lately and I think it's funny. HE was keeping a freaken' scorecard on ME?!? He should have been tracking his own behavior instead. lol

Don't let these idiot guys behavior bother you Hopeful. There are good guys in this world and maybe online (I don't know for sure yet on the latter). Be proud of yourself for doing the work to find out about this guy's integrity and character. Although disappointing, I'd call this interaction a success for you girlfriend!

Anonymous said...

@Mirror, Gem50

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement and hope:-). It really feels good and helps so much to have your support:-). Gem, your author was a real specimenLOL.

Now, I owe you my update. The guy finally did call yesterday evening but it was quite late. His voice was unmanly and he called from a different number he had given me so these three things alone were somewhat disappointing to me. However, it was only a start. He went on to apologize for phoning late because he had watched his favourite TV serial which he didn´t want to miss and he informed me he hadn´t called the previous evening because he had been playing tennis. Then we talked about our jobs and hobbies. He asked me where I usually go cycling and suggested going together. Some time ago I would have agreed to go but I have learned that only mean men invite me to go cycling on a first date because it´s cheaper than going somewhere in the city. Apart from that he suggested a meeting place far from my home and next to his. What a gentlemanLOL. The best part is yet to come though. To my knowledge he was not married but I wasn´t sure whether he was divorced or single so I asked him. He said neither. He asked me about my status and when I said I am single without children he started to show rudeness because he commented on that as if I was not normal. At that point I should have ended the call. I don´t know why I didn´t. I think I was so astonished by his unpleasantness (compared to his nice-sounding e-mails) that I just let him go on talking. And now the culmination point: He informed me he is neither divorced nor married because he has never married his girlfriend with whom he has two little children and shares a flat(!). He added their relationship is "not functional" anymore. He announced it as if my life depended on that piece of informationLOL. They are now finalizing court proceedings regarding the division of their property. In a few months´ time everything will be over. (By the way, he probed astutely about my financial and property situation throughout the whole conversation.) This man was horrible! It would have been much better if he hadn´t called at all. Thanks to Mirror´s site I understand what he was all about. He was testing in the e-mails whether I was the right (victim) type for him and then in the conversation he partly revealed true colours about himself. Towards the end of the conversation I was annoyed and told him I wasn´t interested in a man who would meet me to kill the time and to vent his frustrations over his failed relationship with another woman. I said I wanted a man who would like me, love me and would genuinely look forward to meeting and spending time with me. He was flabberghasted (which shocked me in return). He must have believed I would be enthusiastic about his "potential". Why would a woman in her right mind choose such a loser?

Mirror, Gem50, all the ladies here, I am not a feminist but while dating online I have understood that some men are so terribly entitled just because they are men that it´s unbelievable. In the beginning I thought Mirror was perhaps too strict in some respects but now I agree 120 % with her. And it really isn´t worth giving these men too much time, the best thing is to get rid of them as soon as possible.

I wish you all a nice day:-),
Hopeful

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Hopeful and The Ladies,
"In the beginning I thought Mirror was perhaps too strict in some respects but now I agree 120 % with her."

LOL - you're probably not the only one who has had that thought. But after years spent in the dating world, I came to reach a hard truth. . .if you don't set firm and clear boundaries for yourself, you will be taken advantage of. Period, case closed. If you get into the habit of being too nice, too accommodating, and issuing the benefit of doubt by providing excuses for the behavior of people (instead of holding them accountable for their own actions), you will end up getting run over.

And the best part is - they'll blame YOU for the demise of the situation (again not taking any responsibility for their own actions). Because being entitled means you're covered in butter and shit slides right off of you and onto others LOL.

It's a hard lesson learned - but it's truth.

"he probed astutely about my financial and property situation throughout the whole conversation"

I just love the way that needy men, men who need a woman more than the woman needs a man, act like they're God's gift to her. He starts off treating you like an option and taking his jolly good old time, then he "interviews" you as if he's entitled to "pick" you and you have absolutely no say in the matter, then he judges you for not being married - yet holds absolutely no judgment of himself for starting a family with a woman and never having the decency to marry her. She's good enough to be the mother of his children, but apparently not good enough to be his wife.

This guy NEEDS WOMEN more than THEY NEED HIM.

He needs a woman to live off of. He needs a woman to put a roof over his head. He's about to lose that right now and he's looking to make a smooth transition into a new home with a new lifestyle set up and waiting for him, ready to go.

And honestly - I'm not buying this story at all:

"They are now finalizing court proceedings regarding the division of their property. In a few months´ time everything will be over."

And here's why I'm not buying that at all:

"he called from a different number he had given me"

"He went on to apologize for phoning late because he had watched his favourite TV serial which he didn´t want to miss and he informed me he hadn´t called the previous evening because he had been playing tennis."

I call bullshit here.

First of all, and I may be wrong about this because I'm not sure what country this is taking place in, but here in the states - unless they own that flat together and purchased it instead of renting it - there will be no division of property done by the courts. The courts here in the states don't get involved in boyfriend/girlfriend property matters. They can't get involved because there is nothing legally binding for them to resolve in the first place, other than child support and visitation. The courts don't get involved in the separation of pots and pans, forks and knives, night stands and sofas. They just don't. Not unless there's a legally binding contract (marriage) for them to legally unbind.

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

And even if he's in a country where that does take place there are other red flags. Why call from a different number if this is legit and on the "up and up" and the mother of your children agrees you're both moving on? And why does this man have two phones or phone numbers in the first place? And why give women on the internet one of them, but call from a completely different one, if the one you've already provided is the one you're using for dating and personal purposes?

Lastly, I don't buy that TV shows and tennis are what caused the delay here. It makes MUCH logical that the delay would be caused by. . .oh, I dunno. . .maybe the fact that HE HAS A LIVE-IN GIRLFRIEND. One who has NO CLUE what he's up to. One that he's hiding a second phone from. One who was around the previous evening. And one that he had to wait late in the evening to get away from the day he called, so he could even call in the first place.

Here's one other observation I've made over the years as well. The men who NEED women the most, are the one's who are the cruelest to them.

And I believe their cruelty towards them stems from the fact that deep down, these men know they need a woman to house them and they're resentful of that fact. And their resentment shows in their actions when they strike out at them and begin to judge them openly. They already know they really need you. But they don't want you to know that. So they spin things and make it as if they're a real catch - and you wish you could be so lucky to have them in your life. They're insecure about all of this so they overcompensate. They don't want to be judged for the truth that they're already aware of, so they strike out at you and begin judging you first. It's a power play. If they come in strong and take the offense, they place you into the defensive position immediately.

The dating world is chalk full of men looking to "punish" women for having the upper hand over them.

And you're right - he's seeking a victim here. He's seeking an emotionally weakened woman. One that he can spread this crap over and she'll eat it up, one that he can immediately make feel as if he's better than her, so she better measure up to his high standards. One that will jump through hoops to please him, one that will move him into her home, one that will bear his children without requiring a commitment from him in return, one that will cook for him, clean for him, mother his children for him and be a built-in babysitter for him while he's watching TV shows and playing tennis - and one that he can make say to herself, "What's wrong with me? Why am I not good enough for him?" So that she's in constant "do, do, do" mode for him, trying to be worthy enough, so he can have his cake and eat it too.

THANK GOD you observed closely, listened closely, and then used logic to see through his BS.

Let him go make some other woman miserable, you don't need this and you don't need a man so badly that you'll put up with this type of treatment from one, just to have one in your life.

Can you imagine what living with this dude is like? If he started off his first phone call laced with cruelty, judgment and entitlement. . .can you imagine what daily life with this guy is like for a woman?

A nightmare full of servitude and emotional and verbal abuse, that's what it's like.

NEXT!!!

Cont. . .

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

And I'm so glad you let him have it LOL. I normally don't advocate that type of reaction however I think I've said it before - when you come across a man who takes to attempting to abuse you and judge you immediately. . .they deserve it. The way I look at it, you might be doing the next woman he comes across a favor. He'll either think twice before he opens up his big mouth (for fear he'll get some hurtful truths right back), or your words will ring in his ears for weeks to come, causing him to question himself, whether he ever admits it or not.

If a guy comes at you immediately as if you're an adversary in battle that he has to beat into submission. . .it's acceptable to fight your way off the battlefield by giving it right back.

But be warned. I've done this in the past and one last observation I've made about men of this character is - many of them circle around again with downright hateful words meant to "put you in your place." Because to them, you've stepped out of line as a woman by battling them and winning. I had one guy who I had words with begin to text me like a madman, spewing hateful words at me, calling me names, etc. I blocked him and I thought that was the end of it. He resurface 4 MONTHS LATER via email on a dating site only to take a second pass at me, again spewing hatred.

He had taken this so far, pushed me so far, that the first line in my response to that email started with, "What do you want, you piece of shit."

I'll let your imagination figure out the rest.

But I will say. . .that was the last time I heard from him LOL ;-)

chk61 said...

Good morning ladies:

I just read everyone's updates and as you know, I can relate! Online dating is not for the faint of heart. It can be downright brutal! Yet when I was doing it, I would continually remind myself of my three 45+ girlfriends who all met their men online - and one is getting married in a few weeks. Despite the odds, you can meet a good man online but you need a very thick skin to weed out the bad apples, and it's very important to not take the behavior of men dating online personally!

It's just a numbers game for them, and some say men love variety....with online dating they don't have to make much effort to have hundreds of available women at their fingertips. Online dating is a game changer.

And absolutely we women have to love ourselves first. I am still working on that, I am actually having more trouble with dealing with women than men these days. ;-) It is a process and as I've been a people pleaser throughout life, I find myself explaining, justifying when it should be OK to just decline a social invite because I am busy or I really don't want to go, or for whatever reason, I just cannot commit. In the past I would justify, explain and defend myself....and I find I STILL feel I have to go to those lengths or people won't "like" me. It gets exhausting, and since I am a NICE person, people - especially women peers in my experience - tend to prey on that...even subconsciously perhaps.

In fact, I just found myself composing a long email to explain to a friend why I cannot attend an overnight gathering on a particular weekend. I am learning at my tender age that it is perfectly OK and well within my rights to simply state: "I am so sorry I can't make it. Thank you so much for the invite but I had previous plans." Other people do that, and they seem to do just fine!

I sometimes add: "If anything changes I will certainly let you know" but I'm not sure if that is necessary.

What I have tended to do in my life is provide additional information explaining, justifying and defending my stance because I was terrified that the person would not like me or would disapprove of my saying NO.

I also tend to apologize a lot, and one of my siblings does this as well. Bleah, I am done apologizing for my existence.

My new boyfriend (just passed 4 months) is not like this and he has been very patient with me, as I tiptoe gingerly through the minefield of jealous, competitive and judgmental women "friends". He is wonderful in soooo many ways. And yes, there are some big issues with him that with someone else, would be deal breakers! It's true, you don't get everything with one person....and to have a successful relationship, you have to accept the good with "the bad" - well within reason, of course.

Gem50: love how you decided to handle the text a year later! Bravo.

Hopeful: stay hopeful! There are a lot of loser men out there but keep an eye out for a "diamond in the rough". It took me 8 years since my break up. When I think about how I suffered - how I tortured myself - over men who did not deserve me, who treated me badly (shaking head). Hindsight is 20-20, as the saying goes.

@Loretta: thanks for the book recommendation. I also love "The Four Agreements" and "The Mastery of Love" by Don Miguel Ruiz.

It's a lifelong process as we women grow into our own, and we take care of ourselves, and when we do this - everything falls into place. Naturally, there are bumps in the road no matter what happens. And as Mirror teaches us so patiently and lovingly: "Your value as a woman does not come from men or their approval or acceptance of you, it comes from within you. ".

In my case, your value also does not come from other women's approval or disapproval!

Thanks again for everything, Mirror. Keep on keepin' on, ladies. You're all wonderful people - remember that! :-)



Anonymous said...

@Mirror

Thank you for your reaction. Yes, that man was really horrible. And by the way, he wasn´t that good-looking either. And the voice - feeble, unmanly (big disappointment right at the start of the call) and cowardly. I sensed right away I wouldn´t be able to rely on him in any way. And you are right - he must have lied about many things (you are right about the property thing) because he lied right at the beginning when he answered my advert in which I stated I was looking for a single, sincere and reliable man, which he isn´t . I wouldn´t have told him off if he hadn´t annoyed me with his rudeness but as you say, it may serve him right. Hopefully, he won´t take revenge on me for that (he has my phone number and a photo). And I forgot to tell you that he also said (when he understood I wasn´t willing to play a victim) that I am very rational and not sensitive enough. That my reactions don´t come from the heart but from the mind. Pathetic. One thing I can´t wrap my mind around is these men´s entitlement. We live in the third millenium and in many respects it´s still like in the Middle Ages, isn´t it? The fact that a woman refuses to be abused is still regarded as something unusual, even rebellius and some people even believe such a woman should be excluded from "good circles". (Definitely true in our country - middle Europe). And sadly, many women still accept this reality of abuse.

Mirror, thank you again for your kind words and all you are doing for women. I can honestly say that since I have absorbed the gist of your information I feel so safer and more secure in dating that it´s uncomparable with the past. Now I can immediately recognize that somebody is manipulating me and protect myself from it.

Have a nice rest of the weekend:-),
Hopeful

Lottie said...

@Fire & Water
I don't know quite what I did, but I think I can say this with certainty....'I let go'
At 37, I was single and alone, my friends/siblings all married and some with kids. My social life was my work collegues and I was like a hamster going round and round in one of those wheels. In a 'Respectable well paid job' doing what I thought where the 'right things', but not getting anywhere near to where I wanted to be.
It didn't add up.

In the last year, I saw a therapist and I learnt a lot about myself, about my core being and who I was and what drove me. It was a revelation, but it made things so much clearer.

I also remembered saying that I found it difficult to meet 'like minded people' - and my therapist had mentioned 'Meet Up' - an online social site, where you could meet groups of people based on your interests. I remember feeling at the time, I really can't be bothered to go out and meet new people, let alone make new friends. I'm past that.

Anyway one Sunday at home alone, I thought what the heck and signed up to a dinner that was being organised at a local restaurant for people who lived in the area and just wanted to socialise.
From that a small sub group emerged, and it was just the girls, all single and all living locally.
We have our own whatsapp group and we share a lot between us. I went away on holiday with some of them, we are planning a short trip in November. We had a lovely night out where we all dressed up and went to a swanky bar. A few of us are going to see the Dalai Lama who is giving a talk on compassion in a few weeks time. Movies, brunches, dinners, ...lol, I can't keep up sometimes.

It's been hard work - a lot of internal work for me to understand things. But I am so much more aware of myself now.
I can't explain it apart from that I feel I am on the right path.

The only reason I can say that I feel like I am on the right path, is because I now know what it felt like to be on the wrong path. I really know what I want to do with my life now and am making in roads into making them happen. I am so enjoying this journey right now.

From where I was last year, heart broken and exhausted...life doesn't seem so bleak.

From the reading I did last year, this story - 'The Rain Maker' has become one of my favourites.
http://www.ichinglivingchange.org/resource-library/08nuts-and-bolts-room/rainmaker.pdf

Fire & Water I hope this helps. x

Aww Ms Mirror - "And because of that - she'll probably meet someone within the next 3 - 6 months LOL ;-)"
You'll be the first to know Ms Mirror x

Best Wishes
Lottie x

loretta said...

Dearest Hopeful & All - I wish I could meet MoA in person. We would be best pals! Hopeful's latest dork reminded me so much of my ex husband, it sent chills down my spine. I have been well rid of him for 13 years, and I have a wonderful son out of that relationship, but it still hurts to be reminded of him. However, if it's any consolation (and I hope it is), I met up with him for the first time since 2002. I looked fabulous (lol) and he looked like crap. He had gained a bunch of weight, his hair had turned almost all gray, and he was working some lowly job under the table to avoid paying me any of the $50K plus in child support arrears he has chalked up. He can't get a driver's license or a car, because of these arrears. Would anyone trade places with this guy? Hell, no!

After I informed my son I had met with his dad, my son decided he didn't even want to meet him after all. He said he didn't deserve to be in his life. That he wasn't even his father, and that if he ever met him he'd call him by his first name.

These guys get what's coming to them. Don't worry about it. You dodged a major bullet and you should thank your lucky stars and kiss the carpet next to your bed. LOL

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Hopeful,
"I forgot to tell you that he also said. . .that I am very rational and not sensitive enough. That my reactions don't come from the heart but from the mind."

LOL!!!!

Very telling remark. . .very telling, indeed.

Some men completely give themselves away and their arrogance leads them to believe that others aren't wise enough to see the truth. He makes that statement as if using your head is a bad thing. Obviously for him though, it is.

Translation of his response would be:

"You're too smart. I'll never get away with anything with you. You're not sensitive enough and I won't be able to emotionally manipulate you because you think with your head."

And here's what REALLY cracks me up. . .he actually thinks that you should ALREADY have emotions towards him, a total stranger, during the very first phone call. That's how emotionally weak he's come to believe that women are - and that they should be. He actually believes that women should be a bundle of emotions that he can freely toy with and yank around predictably.

It's very telling in that he's clearly come to rely on the ability to do that with women right from the start.

And he was working that manipulation angle with you even still - when he tried to make you feel bad about yourself for being a wise woman - and he made that remark as if using your head is a bad thing. The way he said that was mean't to make you question yourself. It was meant to trigger insecurities so that in your head you'd say to yourself, "Wait a minute - he thinks there's something wrong with me." And you were supposed to then - predictably so - being jumping through hoops to prove yourself and please him.

He told you that you weren't sensitive enough. . .to be triggered by that remark. He basically told you that you weren't sensitive enough for him to manipulate you LOL. Because in order for someone to be able to manipulate another person, that other person has to be sensitive so that when remarks like that are dished out - they'll hurt and trigger a predictable response.

"The fact that a woman refuses to be abused is still regarded as something unusual"

I think what's really at the heart of this is this. . .women like that don't need men to take care of them. That fact, in the past, has always given men the upper hand with women. These days, that "need" no longer exists and for some men, they can't wrap their heads around that. They can't wrap their heads around the fact that a woman can nowadays make it through life without a man taking care of her and they find that lack of power over them quite unusual.

"I feel so much safer and more secure in dating that it´s uncomparable with the past"

And that's all that really matters - your happiness and your confidence and YOU being in control of your life, instead of being at the whim of another :-)

This guy was a complete pompous ass. A needy man that already knows he's needs a very needy woman in his life - if he's to successfully leech off of her. He's a total loser trying to spin himself as a real catch.

And he's also a man that was just defeated. . .by a very wise woman using her head and not her heart LOL ;-)

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Lottie,
"A few of us are going to see the Dalai Lama who is giving a talk on compassion in a few weeks time."

THAT is a true gift dear. Not everyone has the pleasure of this man's company or even the opportunity for it at a speaking engagement. Be like a sponge that day and absorb every word this man shares.

I have purchased some of his DVD's and audio books and I have watched them over and over and over again, each time absorbing a different message or something that I missed the first time. He is truly an individual that understands that happiness isn't something elusive outside of us that you endlessly chase through life. . .it's something that you develop within you that's right at your fingertips.

When your life is "full," you don't experience that heavy sense of "lack." You're more focused on what you DO have (full), versus what you DON'T have (lack).

Do report back and share with us any words of wisdom gained at that event :-)

Anonymous said...

@Loretta
Thank you for your encouragement. I am sorry to hear about your previous difficult experience. On the other hand, if you hadn´t gone through it, we probably would have never met on Mirror´s site:-). (This applies to all the Ladies). And it´s great to have the opportunity to be here and have friends here albeit virtual ones...:-) Much, much better than women-frenemies in real life.

@chk61
Okay, I´ll stick with Hopeful (you might not know but I started with Hopeless and after some time changed to Hopeful. So far no tangible results but let´s hope for the better:-)) Good luck with the next phase of your relationship - despite obstacles it seems to be going on better than perfectly well:-)

@Lottie
I am glad to hear you are on the right path. I think you have a very good chance to meet the right man for you just don´t waste time with losers:-)

Mirror, Ladies,
immediately after the phone call with that awful man I put a new advert on the dating site and this time I am lucky - quite a lot of responses (about 10 so far - which is a relatively high number in comparison with some other ads I put there before). Maybe because they are gradually returning from holidays. I´ve decided that from now on I am going to be really picky and fast and determined so that online dating doesn´t consume too much of my time and energy and I have more time and energy for real life. What is important, I am learning. For instance last year at this time I met the dance trainer who I corresponded with for several weeks and who wasn´t even capable of inviting me on a date properly. At this point I am sure I wouldn´t give such a man a chance.

Best regards and keep smiling:-),
Hopeful

Anonymous said...

Hello.
I was drawn to this site after one of the typical Taurus man interactions. That relationship is over and while I know he will circle back around again, after reading what I have here, I'll be good and ready for him. :)

Messaged with another Taurus recently online. He came on fairly strong showing a great deal of interest. He messaged me his number and I threw him mine and didn't call. He had mentioned from the start this was the beginning of the school year and it was going to be a busy week (he's a college professor). I didn't respond to that (nothing to say about it) and went on about my business. He had my number for 3 days and hand't texted. I had asked him to text before calling. I erased the contact.

He texted on the 4th day. "Let's talk". I was busy so I responded when I got home. I was tired so I responded advising him it was good to hear from him. I said I would have to call him another time. He said ok. I asked him what a good time would be. No response. So I went about my business. 3 days later he texts (as I knew he would) that anytime today would be a good time to call. LOL

Do I wait 3 days to call or do I let him know in 3 days when he can call me? Do I respond to his text much later on today? I am interested in this guy but I do know they like to play games. I know I have to put him in his place before even talking to him for the first time so the boundaries are drawn.

I'm not sure what action I should take? Thank you all for your help.

Anonymous Ana

Heartbroken Gem said...

Mirror,

Hi. I am back with an update and a question. I wrote about three or four weeks ago about a guy I had started seeing. He was the responsible one who informed me after a couple of dates that after being in a long term monogamous live in relationship of several years, that he liked me and was interested in dating but was not ready to jump into another relationship. He made it clear that if we slept together, it would not stop from him from potentially seeing other people. I agreed and continued to see him about once or twice a week (and kept myself open to seeing other men). We have had fun, and I have been careful to not reach out too much. Sometimes we would speak daily and then other times, we would not speak for several days until he reached out to me. I was fine with all that. We had a bit of an unpleasant conversation a few nights ago when he had to cancel plans for the next day due to legitimate work related reasons. He expressed his desire to see me before leaving for a trip later this week. He said he would try his best to make that happen. We went out on Saturday night for dinner despite him feeling ill. Last night, I texted him to give him some contact info for someone we discussed and asked how he was feeling. He said he was better and shortly thereafter texted me to say he had seen his ex that day and that it made him realize that he is not yet ready to be emotionally responsible for anyone else. I saw the text last night but did not respond. This information is not new to me as it was similar to what he told me after our few couple of dates. I thought he would send another text telling me we are done dating, but he did not. I felt like he was expressing emotions that he was experiencing while a lot of work and personal stress. So this morning I sent him a text simply saying “I know we have discussed this before, and I am glad we are on the same page.” I did not want to respond with any emotion. I am not sure if he will respond to my text at all. Is there another approach I should be taking? Thank you for your always constant support and wisdom. It is much appreciated!

Anonymous said...

@Mirror
Absolutely, Mirror, he was an awful manipulator, exactly the type of man I usually fell for in the past. (I have a history with manipulative women abusers as well). Never say never, but I dare say I will never again let a person like that manipulate me . And these manipulative abusers are the worst kind because they knock you down heartlessly and cruelly just to obtain an advantage and abuse you and then they are able to tell you that it was your fault. And Ladies who are dating online, please listen to Mirror: If a man is only a little unpleasant or disrespectfu, just a little is enough for you to know that the best thing you can do is to avoid him. That´s something I didn´t want to accept but now, having online experience I can testify it. Basically, I have met only two types of men - those who hurt me (even in an early e-mail exchange by being slightly disrespectful) and those who didn´t. It´s very simple. I am writing this because I used to justify their "stabs" (I thought maybe I was not friendly enough or nice enough or flirtatious enough or he didn´t like me that much, etc.). All this might be true but a decent man will never hurt you for that. And this applies to men and women alike.
Hopeful

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Hopeful and The Ladies,
"I am writing this because I used to justify their "stabs" (I thought maybe I was not friendly enough or nice enough or flirtatious enough or he didn´t like me that much, etc.)."

This is VERY common - particularly with women. And here's why:

1) Women tend to have an "inward" focus (look to themselves as the cause)

When something goes wrong, it's very typical for a woman's first response to be "What did I do?" (Looking in.)

2) Men tend to have an "outward" focus (look for an outside cause or solution).

It's also very typical for a man's first thoughts to be "What is wrong with her?" (Looking out) LOL ;-)

Men are analytical thinkers, which compels them to seek solutions (outside). Women are emotional thinkers, which compels them to tap into themselves (inward).

Something to remember as well. . .when you first meet someone, it's human nature to be on your best behavior, showing only your best self. It's very natural to resort to that state of being as a way to impress and influence others.

Now knowing that - what do you think it says about folks, in this case men, who, when you first meet them. . .they're ignorant, disrespectful and/or take to pointing out faults?

If that's their best self, the best version of themselves, then what do you think life would be like with them once they drop their guard and are no longer focused on presenting their best self to impress anymore?

If someone can't even be nice to you when they first meet you - they're not going to become nicer to you over time. If anything, things become more difficult over time.

People who can't lead with their best foot forward - aren't people you need in your life. Don't make excuses for their behavior - hold THEM ACCOUNTABLE for it instead and don't look to yourself as the cause.

If someone is an idiot, it's not because of you, or anything you did or said, or didn't do or say. It's simply because. . .they're an idiot LOL ;-)

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Heartbroken Gem,
"Is there another approach I should be taking?"

That depends on what you want. If you're okay with only being casually sexually involved and you're not expecting this to develop into a committed relationship, then that's the correct approach.

However, if you're thinking that sex will lead to commitment - this is not the correct approach. Because casual sexual situations do not lead to commitment. They only lead to hookups, booty calls and brief flings or short-lived 3 month affairs. So agreeing to settle for a casual sexual situation when you really want a committed relationship isn't wise.

If you're okay with the way things are, then continue as you are. However, if you really want a committed relationship, you need to accept the fact that this man has already informed you that's not going to happen. In which case you need to remove yourself from the situation and free yourself emotionally from any attachments that may be forming so that you can meet and make room for a man who wants the same thing you want (because this guy isn't going to change, and he's already told you commitment is off the table).

Lottie said...

Hi Ms Mirror,

I shall most certainly report back and let you know what I thought. I am almost going as a blank slate, as I know very little about the Dalai Lama's teachings, so I shall be interested to see what impact he has on me. I am very much looking forward to it.

Hopeful - thank you. I must say you handled the recent chap very well indeed.

Lottie x

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Aug 30, 3:35 PM
"Do I wait 3 days to call or do I let him know in 3 days when he can call me?"

He needs to be the man here and call YOU. Never let a guy put you in the position of having to chase him - EVER. It's a "power play" move, trying to get the upper hand (power) while he puts you into the position of having to beg for a crumb of his attention.

If this man wants to talk to you, he needs to be a man an pick up the phone and call you, instead of acting like a woman and continually asking you to call HIM. Man leads, woman submits (if she chooses). HE needs to be the masculine energy (leading, initiating), and not you. YOU need to be the feminine energy (submissive).

If he coerces you into flip flopping those roles, this will not go well. You will always be placed in the position of having to chase him and lead the relationship from that point on, and it will leave you feeling unhappy and confused, questioning yourself, "Why doesn't he call me? Does he not like me? Does this man even WANT to see me? Why doesn't he lift a finger for me?"

That's a big ole' N-O LOL ;-)

Don't let men talk you into that. YOU have something THEY WANT. YOU hold the power. . .do not give it away, and do not fall for their attempts to manipulate you into doing so.

You respond back in a couple days with, "Hey, I'm free to talk today, gimmie' a ring when you have a moment." And if that call doesn't come, and instead another text comes through with some lame excuse or another attempt to manipulate you into calling him - ignore it, and don't respond.

Because I'll be honest. . .3 strikes with stuff like this and you're out. Meaning, the man is OUT.

If he's already playing games, creating excuses, and engaging in a power struggle this early on - he's not a man you want to date anyway. Because behavior like this doesn't get better, it gets worse. If you cave and you call, he'll expect you to chase him from that day forward and he'll quickly begin to take you for granted.

You want to date a man, a real man, that isn't afraid to go after what he wants. It's not like he's being expected to cut off his right arm. It's a phone call. And if he can't lift a finger this early on and make a phone call to you to show you that he's genuinely interested in getting to know you. . .then his actions are telling you that he's NOT all that interested in getting to know you - and you move on away from him without looking back.

It may sound harsh - but this is how you "filter" when dating an weed out the lazy, entitled ones from the real "keepers" that are emotionally mature enough to do the work required to maintain a healthy, committed relationship.

If you don't actively "filter" when dating and look out for yourself - you end up wasting a lot of time, pain and emotion on men who aren't even worthy of you and that expect you to act desperate by chasing them around.

Insecure little boys who aren't sure what they want hesitate and play games - confident men who know what they want jump in and take action.

The only way a woman can know if a man is genuinely interested - is to see if HE pursues HER ;-)

loretta said...

I wish I had read that comment from MoA above a year ago. Alas, I took the role of pursuer and it was never satisfying for me. I never do that anymore, and the results are pretty interesting, although still very frustrating. I have been having a slew of new men asking me out, and I have met with a couple. I had fun, they seemed to like me, and both said, "Can't wait to see you again!" Then.....crickets. Now, it's only been a couple of days, so maybe they are worried about looking too eager, which is a turn off for us as well. However, I suspect, perhaps, they are looking for me to chase them. And I don't. I have had at least 5 dates this summer with men who claimed to like me and want to see me again, and then nothing. I did not text them, initiate any contact, call them or suggest activities. Before I learned my lesson (Thanks Mirror!) I would have. I would be the frickin cruise director. Let's go here! Let's do this! Are we on for Thursday? Ok, when are we going? Like that little dog in the cartoon who is eager to play.

Now I don't do that. I wait for them to make the next move. After a couple of these guys disappeared, I thought something was wrong with me. (Old bad wrong thinking.) Then I realized that there was no way they were faking having fun with me. They all prolonged the date (instead of getting out early), they all were attracted to me, they all wanted to hold my hand and give me a kiss goodnight...and they all said, to a man, they wanted to see me again. Then....nothing.

It appears that all but one are still online, still on Tinder, still looking around. Maybe they need a woman to be the pants in the relationship. They all were good to begin the journey, and then quit. I guess there are so many girls out there that will chase men, they want to take the lazy way out. And all of them, probably, will still be seeking that perfect woman and not even realize they have sabotaged it by giving up the reins.

I have a date on Friday with a fellow writer. Maybe he'll be funny enough and man enough to get me away from Casual Guy once and for all. CG and I are finished with the screenplay, and we started another one, but I am growing weary of him. He wants me to partner with him in his business, now, because I am so awesome (LOL), but I feel like telling him to take a hike. As Mirror pointed out: WHAT HAS HE DONE FOR ME? Squat. Nada. Bupkus. What have I done for him? I have been the best friend he ever had.

Gem50 said...

@ All,
My computer is with the fix it guys removing bad guy stuff and the reason I can't copy/paste a link from nook - so my apologies in advance for taking the long road here.

If you have facebook, Dr Wayne Dyer has left a wonderful gift offering a free viewing of his movie The Shift. I think many here may find a message in it.

@Ms. Mirror
I am saddened over Dr Dyer's passing as well as the passing of a high school teacher who was a wonderful life teacher and wonderful man I have stayed in contact with for 35 yrs.

You have continually said people and events come when and as they are meant to. This movie from Dr. Dyer supports this. Specific words that he uses are what we read here; not only from you but also as we see the journeys of so many.

Thank you for serving so many women on this site. May the gift be returned in abundance to you.




Fire&Water said...

@Lottie -
Thank you so much for the detailed explanation! It does help; I've been wondering about meetup. Your story reinforces that that might be a direction I need to try. I hear you on the 30's and single w/ married friends :D...that's me right now. I definitely think I need a few more people in my life whose company I enjoy.

@Hopeful
"I forgot to tell you that he also said. . .that I am very rational and not sensitive enough. That my reactions don't come from the heart but from the mind."
Mirror is SPOT ON with her comments on this. It is actually a back handed compliment, once you see past the sting. The guy is admitting that you are being logical and thinking rationally and consequently, he can't play you. He doesn't like it, which is why he's phrasing it as a negative, but it really is a sign that you're too strong for him and you've won. I had something similar said to me once. Cheers, girl - you're doing something right! ..Please keep your name "Hopeful" :) Sending you good thoughts and best wishes!
F&W

Anonymous said...

@Fire&Water
Thank you for your kind words:-) Okay, I´ll keep Hopeful and hopefully, I´ll live up to its meaning. Best wishes to you, too:-)

Anonymous said...

From Huge Fan

Hi Mirror - I wrote to you on the 11th August , when Leo man disappeared, I suspect because I pushed him away being too hard to get and then too needy asking him questions about how he felt etc... I backed off as you suggested and he hasn't heard a peep from me. Last contact I had was 9th August when I re-requested him on Facebook. (1 month ago) he had ignored it or so it seemed. Today(4th September) I wake to find he accepted the request last night and wrote ' I thought we were already friends on here' shocked face... So what is my next move? Do I believe that he didn't realize for a whole month that I requested his friendship ? If so it shows that he couldn't care less? ..Or is it more likely that he is now curious? either way, do I respond after 3 days or do I ignore it and see if he writes again? ...I am less bothered and attached that I was , and had literally just started to find me again and get happy. I don't want to alienate him completely I guess just to be friendly would be best? I would be grateful if you could give your opinion and wisdom on this. ;-) Thank you for all the wisdom you are sharing with us. I read your blog almost daily. But when it comes to ones own situation it is less easy to know what is what, so its great to get outside perspective and advise. I re-read your advice to me many times to keep me strong. It is a blessing to have found someone like you to advise in matters of the heart. Thank you.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Huge Fan,
" I wake to find he accepted the request last night and wrote ' I thought we were already friends on here' shocked face... So what is my next move?"

You don't have to "do" anything or make any moves. Because the only way a woman can know if a man is genuinely interested is to see if HE pursues HER. So now you just observe to see if that happens ;-)

loretta said...

Hi All! In our last episode (LOL), I had an upcoming date with a TV writer, and it was great fun. He gave me lots of interesting information, he was funny and nice, lives nearby, and contacted me a little afterward. He wants to see me again, and he's going to send me a screenplay he wrote. I have a first date tonight with a guy who lives nearby, we've had some phone conversations, and I'll see if I like him when I meet him in person. There are also two or three unmet guys on the back burner who could be brought to the forefront any time.

But, the really interesting thing? Casual Guy, my writing partner, former "boyfriend" and the source of frustration and confusion, suddenly changed toward me. I don't know if it is because his "grass is greener" experiment failed, or because my energy is different (which will happen if you follow MoA's advice, if you let go of any need to prove to someone you're worthy of them, or if you really don't care what they do anymore, and you become something they can't have), but after our meeting on Thursday, he asked me what I was doing over the weekend. He probably knows I go out with other guys, but he never asks about it, and I never ask him about his love life. We are not "girlfriends." (Haha). He asked me if I wanted to go out to the boat. I haven't been out there since I helped him sail it there in May. I said, Sure, why not! He called the next day when he said he would. (Miracle) He made firm plans with me. I went out to the boat, expecting to have a day there and go home at night. We went boating, swimming, had the dog I gave him with us, had lunch, had dinner, he had drinks, of course. He was attentive, took care of everything, paid for everything, said a lot of things to me that indicated he wanted to be more than "friends." We had the best time we've ever had. We were very comfortable together. He was very into me, more so than any other time I've been with him. It was a completely different experience. It was like being with someone who really likes you early in the relationship when it's all fresh. Granted, it's been 5 months since we stopped dating, but we've seen each other once or twice a week since then, and he had a lot of time with me that was strictly friendship. He probably sensed I was over him and moving on.

Anyway, I have no expectations. it's going to be interesting to see if that was a fluke, or if he asks me to do something other than business related again. Maybe he thinks I'm his fallback girl. I will not pursue it whatsoever. If he wants something more with me, he'll have to make his intentions clear. I won't let him play with my heart again. If we are meant to be, it will have to come from him this time. I have other fish to fry.

The best advice I got from this site was learning not to chase anyone. I may have lost a lot of second dates that way, but no great loss. The men who are worth your time will pursue you. And if Casual Guy is worth a second look, he needs to step up in a consistent way. If not, I can maintain the status quo with him and move on to better things. Casual Guy has a weird radar with me. He seems to pick up on when I am tired of him and when I'm drifting away. He can't play me, I know him too well. I hold all the cards. But, had I done things differently when he said he wanted to date other women, instead of playing it totally cool, he might have justified it. Instead, he watched me getting on with my life, meeting new men, working well with him, being a great partner to him, being a good friend to him, never interrogating or nagging or begging him back (puhleeze), he probably thought: this girl is really different. Hmmmm.

Anonymous said...

Hi MOA, I think I may have another disappearing man. We only went out on 2 dates, but he was kissing me during dinner and then at the end of the night when he dropped me off. It seemed like the dates went well, but after the 2nd date he didn't follow up after the date to say he had a nice time or anything. I think that is my cue that he is not going to ask again? He hasn't called in over a week. Maybe he was just after sex? He told me on the first date that his dad is living on his couch right now and how bad it has been for his sex life. Then he also said when we went past this place that it was a known place that Cougars go to so they can get laid. He mentioned that his friends used to always want to go there on Monday nights. He then said his friends are man whores. He also said that some girl who is a friend of his was texting him that night asking if he wanted to go get sushi. He was texting her back, but apologized. He also told me that night that his grandfather used to beat him up when he would go there during the summers when he was a little kid. Are these all red flags? Sounds like some crazy stuff. His reference to sex quite a few times makes me think that is all he was after and I wasn't going to go there on the first few dates. I'm not like that. What do you think? Thanks, Mirror

Anonymous said...

Preface: I KNOW I have made any number of mistakes as part of my story so we can probably skip most of the lecturing ;). I have made it through about 4,000 of the comments on the original piece so please bear with me if any of these questions are repeats – I’m still reading and learning!

Him: Cancer
Me: Cancer (Leo cusp)
Late 30s

Background (heavily abbreviated): Knew each other many years ago, paths crossed a few times in Fall 2014. I invited him out in early 2015 just to hang out, build up the professional connection. We hung out a number of times, very much a friendship, him initiating, me initiating. We did kiss a number of times after consuming some drinks but neither one of us pushed the physical piece any further. During one dinner, he was holding my hands across the table and commented that he really didn’t want to mess “this” up – I was a little confused by what he meant but also happy with how things seemed to be going so I didn’t concern myself with it although didn’t realize how much I held on to that moment. At some point in Spring (March/April) we were at dinner again and he asked something along the lines of what are we going to do about this. I should mention here that I got divorced nearly 10 years ago and have avoided dating and relationships like the plague until recently. I was completely thrown off by his question and launched into some [amazingly stupid] soliloquy about how we were at different places in life, I want a relationship, he said he isn’t ready for one (he had said that some number of months ago in a group setting). And then I basically rushed the rest of the night along without ever asking what he wanted, and got in a cab to go home. There was a text from him thanking me for the difficult but honest conversation and I thanked him and told him I appreciated the closure. His response was along the lines of “closure sucks” and can’t we still be friends and hang out. I told him in time I felt we could (and I really did and do believe that but the key is time). I struggled through the next day with the help of a very supportive friend, and went to bed early. As I was lying in bed I got a text from him saying how bummed he was about how things ended between us. We had a bit of back and forth, ending on a high note. He returned to his usual text communication within a day or two.

(Cont)

Anonymous said...

(Cont)

Summer has been a bit tough for both of us schedule-wise but he has been very communicative via text (I should throw in here that neither of us are big phone talkers and have talked about that), with him initiating over 70% of the communications. Towards the end of summer, a few friends point out that although he seems interested, he also seems unsure (now I realize, insecure) – and then they point out that I’m not exactly the easiest person to read and maybe I need to make my interest a little more obvious to this man (I know, I know). So the next time we meet, I go out of my way to be more touchy/flirty – I touch his arm, I put my hand on his knee (no higher!!). He kisses me goodnight and we go our separate ways. More texting. We go out the following week and at this point, I’m just over it…so when he says how fun our last time together was, referring to my touchy/feely stuff, I was just honest and said that I liked him and would be interested in exploring more than friendship but that the effort/initiative would need to come from him, and that I was also fine with just friendship. I wasn’t emotional or demanding or nasty, just stated my position so that there would be no more confusion on anyone’s part. He complimented me on how well stated it was and thanks me for my honesty. We enjoyed the rest of the evening together, followed by him texting to thank me for the evening. We’ve done a bit of texting in between but I’ve now pulled back completely. I hadn’t heard from him in 7 days, but got the usual fishing text at 7pm on Friday night - I did reply the next morning (keep in mind that I’m not angry with him, just trying to use NC as a detachment tool for myself). Soooooo, for my questions for you wise ladies (and Peter, if he’s still here!):
1) Was he just trying to get in my pants all this time? And is that what the fishing texts are about?
2) Did I totally ruin it by telling him I like him? Too much?
3) I was trying to do 30 days NC for myself, to start the healing process, but there is a professional event at day 14 that I want to attend. It looks like he will be there. Should I avoid it for my own well-being and healing? Does him seeing me basically restart his clock IF he is thinking about me? (I will mention that it’s entirely possible we could run into each other any day of the work week by chance because we are often in the same buildings)
4) I am by no means so wrapped up in this man that I can’t/don’t date others but I also want to make sure I’m being patient and not rushing to conclusions about his sudden lack of interest/communication – at our age, we have baggage. And honestly, I do miss him and our interactions. Am I just being naïve and he’s not into me?

There isn't much info on the site about Cancer men that I've found so far...
So excited to have found this community. I had actually stopped online dating in July because it was exhausting – I must say after reading through the advice and comments here, I kinda want to take another swing at it just because I feel like it would be good practice and I could actually deal with the flakes (of which there are many!).

Cancer Leo

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Cancer Leo,
"Was he just trying to get in my pants all this time?"

Anything is possible but generally speaking, folks who are out to use others don't invest that much time into them (unless they're out to pull off some huge score like draining you of your life's savings over the course of years or something along those lines). Generally speaking, folks who are out to use others make a few strong attempts - they test the water - and when they realize they're not going to get away with it, which is usually after about the 3rd or 4th unsuccessful attempt, they disappear completely. They swoop in hard and fast, attempting to use confusion and inappropriate knee-jerk responses to the "overwhelm" they deliver to their advantage. Their goal is to overwhelm you, confuse you, and move quick so as to not give you too much time to think about it - hoping for a knee jerk reaction or impulsive decision that's in their favor.

And once they've attempted that a few times and they're not getting the response they expected, most times they'll disappear completely. If they do circle around again for another attempt, it's usually months later. They'll leave complete silence in between those times. Hoping that works to their advantage when they return for a 2nd attempt (hoping you'll be so regretful of not taking them up on their offer the first time, that you'll jump right into their lap the 2nd time around.)

"Should I avoid it for my own well-being and healing?"

Well, what you're trying to heal from? Meaning, has he hurt you in any way?

"Does him seeing me basically restart his clock IF he is thinking about me?"

That depends on the individual and their level of interest. There's really no way to tell.

"Am I just being naïve and he’s not into me?"

A number of things could be the cause of the change. He may now be hesitant because when he attempted to move things along the first time, he didn't get the response he was most likely expecting, which has caused him to be gun shy.

He could've also met someone and might be in the process of getting to know them. It could also be that he may sense you're not sure what you want, and he doesn't want to put his own feelings and emotions at risk of getting hurt. He may have also just accepted that the timing here appears to be off. It could be any number of things.

loretta said...

@Cancer-Leo: I don't quite understand why you would do any kind of NC on this guy. It's almost as though you want to use it like a voodoo spell to get him to miss you. However, he hasn't done anything to deserve it, in my opinion. I use NC for two things: 1) to get over someone completely, like a guy who breaks up with me or I break up with him; or 2) to resist initiating communication with someone who is a bad communicator. It's not so much "NC" as it is waiting for him to initiate.

It sounds like he is initiating. When he initiates, I'd respond sooner than a day. Your delayed response is giving him the vibe that you are not interested. If you're interested in him, you might want to be a little more enthusiastic. I think men need encouragement as well as space to allow them to come to you. When he initiates, respond. Suggest things to do, give him some ideas about what you like. He may want to make you happy and doesn't know how.

Meantime, Casual Guy, who had suddenly turned into Attentive Guy, just as suddenly turned into Neglectful Guy. It was amazing. This is what happens when you "date" an insecure guy. Even though we are not dating, and that day on the boat was about as romantic as anything has ever been, it could have been a one-off. I had no illusions about him being consistent. He has a tendency to self-sabotage, and I have learned how to avoid the IEDs he lays around the path for me. When he blew off our writing meeting last night, I didn't get upset, but I reminded him that if he wanted me to work with him in a business capacity, he needed to communicate better and not flake out on me. He totally flaked. He has done that a few times over the year.

Here's where NC comes into play. I stated what I required to participate in the projects. We tentatively rescheduled the meeting and confirmed a social event we are attending next Friday. Now I will go silent. I will wait for him to initiate contact via email or phone (I don't text him anymore AT ALL). If he doesn't follow up, guess what? I won't be there. Simple as that. We women like to talk, talk, talk, scold, bitch, nag. Instead, I will show him, with my ACTIONS, that it is unacceptable for him to treat me with anything but the same respect he would a professional colleague. I won't let him treat me like the on-again-off-again girlfriend.

How? By not participating at all. I can finish the script without him. When he gets his act together, I'll share th work and see if he wants to make any changes. As far as partnering with him in any business ventures? I'll laugh out loud in his face when he brings it up again and say, "Do you think I'm crazy? You couldn't pay me enough to put up with your modus operandi! Find some other idiot to do it!"

Anonymous said...

An update on my old situation. I was the woman who dated the guy who bragged he was good in bed, but then did not ejaculate either time we had sex. If you recall, he never responded to my last text which was after the last time we went out and I never followed up with him. Three months passed and earlier this week I reached out to him. He initially made small talk and when it was obvious he wasn't going to address the obvious, I spoke my truth.

Me: To be honest, I was having fun getting to know you and if you didn't feel the same so be it. But I felt blindsided by the silence from you and it hurt my feelings. I didn't deserve that and I didn't think you'd be the type of person to behave that way. I hope you can at least appreciate my perspective on that and understand it was disappointing.

Him: I completely understand your perspective and apologize if I unintentionally offended you. Just became really consumed with things ever since grad school had ended. Moving,...Pls don't feel that lost communication implied I attempted to hurt feelings.

As you can see, this man's excuse is BS. Life so busy you can't send a text? Integrity should not rest on time management. But this man was shamed - as he should be - and grappled to downplay his behavior as an oversight so he doesn't have to fully face who he really is.

Anonymous said...

Ladies, there is something to be said for silence. It works wonders for tending to your own wounds and maintaining composure until you are ready to speak your truth. Men like this *should not* be allowed to behave this way without confrontation or consequence. You only get to say something once to people like this and anger does nothing to get your point across. For me, the point of power was not in silence, but in calling attention to his behavior and the impact it had on me. I get to have a voice about what happens in my life.

As for me, in the past 3 months, I moved on and had a lot of fun. Have been meeting new men. I told this guy I appreciated his understanding and hoped to see him around. If I did, I'd be cordial. Why? Because his behavior isn't a reflection of me and I refuse to carry any negativity from this encounter. How can you be mad when you realize you dodged a bullet?

That being said, I know a crazy woman who I'd love to fix him up with- lol. They'd be a great match and it would be just compensation for his lousy ways with women.

Anonymous said...

MOA and Loretta, thank you both so much for taking the time to respond to me!

"Well, what you're trying to heal from? Meaning, has he hurt you in any way?"
No, he hasn't hurt me in any way but I fear being hurt because I may be reading entirely too much into things. I allowed myself to develop feelings for a man who may or may not have feelings for me when we could have a good friendship if it weren't for me having feelings for him. We have been building this friendship for over 6 months now - it seems he would have developed those feelings for me if it was going to happen.

"It's almost as though you want to use it like a voodoo spell to get him to miss you."
Hehehe, no voodoo spell although I can see where you might think that. I really want to use it as a tool to get over him so we can be friends. I don't want to allow my feelings to ruin a friendship - especially if he starts to sense that I want more.

"It sounds like he is initiating. When he initiates, I'd respond sooner than a day. Your delayed response is giving him the vibe that you are not interested. If you're interested in him, you might want to be a little more enthusiastic. I think men need encouragement as well as space to allow them to come to you. When he initiates, respond."
I think this is where I've muddied the waters a bit - things did get very confusing between us there for a while, which I why I came right out and told him I liked him and would be interested in exploring more. I guess right now I'm kicking myself for that since it was me leading rather than allowing him to. And thank you for the thoughts about a quicker response - I think I'm so caught up in protecting myself and not being one of these people who gets so wrapped up in someone who is not interested that I'm not thinking straight. I feel like maybe I've been too available to him and then just coming right out and telling him I like him - where is the challenge in that for him, ya know?

"Suggest things to do, give him some ideas about what you like. He may want to make you happy and doesn't know how."
Okay, I really like this idea...but isn't it kind of leading? I'm sorry for the silly questions - I've just been out of dating for so long that I may be leaning back too far. Plus there are probably complications from this being a friendship, where I would just initiate because we're friends and that's what friends do. I just hope I can get myself level-set back to friendship.

Cancer Leo

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Cancer Leo,
"Well, what you're trying to heal from? Meaning, has he hurt you in any way?" -- "No, he hasn't hurt me in any way but I fear being hurt because I may be reading entirely too much into things. I allowed myself to develop feelings for a man who may or may not have feelings for me when we could have a good friendship if it weren't for me having feelings for him. We have been building this friendship for over 6 months now - it seems he would have developed those feelings for me if it was going to happen."

But - isn't that what this below indicated?

"he asked something along the lines of what are we going to do about this. . .I was completely thrown off by his question and launched into some soliloquy about how we were at different places in life, . .And then I basically rushed the rest of the night along without ever asking what he wanted, and got in a cab to go home. There was a text from him thanking me for the difficult but honest conversation. . .His response was along the lines of “closure sucks” . . .As I was lying in bed I got a text from him saying how bummed he was about how things ended between us."

I may be wrong - but to me, I believe he was attempting to have "the talk" about his feelings. And he confirmed that when he showed disappointment over the fact that it didn't go as he had planned. I'm reading this as - this WAS his attempt at sharing his feelings for you, but you avoided the conversation.

"I don't want to allow my feelings to ruin a friendship"

But you've already stated " I want a relationship." Yet when he attempted to share his feelings, possibly to move this into the domain of a committed relationship, you kinda' ran from that conversation. And in a way, denied yourself the opportunity to have what it is that you want, which is a relationship.

"I feel like maybe I've been too available to him and then just coming right out and telling him I like him - where is the challenge in that for him, ya know?"

Again, I may be wrong - but I'm kinda' thinking that this guy feels "shot down" on his attempt at a possible relationship here and as a result - he's now uncertain and hesitant because he's sensing you're unsure and hesitant (based on your response to the first conversation attempt).

I may be misinterpreting things here, and there could be portions of the full story missing. . .but I'm thinking this man feels rejected possibly. And that has now caused doubt and hesitation with him.

Anonymous said...

MOA - thank you for your last post - I've had a few people (men and women) indicate the same thing to me. If this is the case, how do I recover from this? Is it leading of me to circle back around to the conversation? I guess I assumed that by just being upfront about my feelings about a month ago, that would remove any doubt for him. He isn't seeing anyone else and has been very open about that - but he does have some insecurities from past failed relationships so my 'rejection' may have brought up those memories.

Huh....perhaps I should have just stayed out of the dating world!!

Cancer Leo

PS I'm sorry for some of the multiple posts you may be getting from me - my posts seem to go through on one web browser but not another.

loretta said...

A rolling stone gathers no moss, and I never let grass grow under my feet! I have two upcoming dates with new men! I haven't been asked by the TV writer for another date, but he may reappear soon. He has been communicating at least. I have a date with a guy who worked on a local TV show (on Sunday) and a date with a college professor - probably a lot more my type, but he lives an hour away, uggh) on Tuesday. He will come up to my area of town to meet me. Good sign! I had a long talk with a relative I saw recently at my father's funeral, someone I haven't been in touch with in a long time, and told him about Casual Guy and how difficult it's been for me. He gave me some good advice: he said I was too predictable and reliable, and although that is counterintuitive (I mean, who doesn't like predictable and reliable? Like a good car!), I should stop responding to him in the usual ways. That would be me calling him out on his bad communication or disrespect and instead DON'T TAKE IT! Don't take it! Get up and walk out of the meeting. Hang up the phone. Don't let it go and pretend nothing happened. He said CG was passive-aggressive and did this Flaking Out crap to throw me off balance, to retain control again. It's all about control. Now, since I think control is an illusion for insecure people, I can see it for what it is and ignore it. I can refuse to play this weird, dysfunctional game that is childish and counterproductive.

So, my strategy to ignore CG when he eventually contacts me (which he will, within 3-4 days, set your watches, girls), and wait....wait....wait until CG is shocked (SHOCKED) that I haven't returned his calls, reminded him of the meeting, followed up with him, or sent him anything about anything in days. I haven't decided how long to go, but I can probably keep it up for a long time. At least until CG has a come to Jesus moment and drives over to my house and knocks on the door. Don't hold your breath, but that would be funny.

Since, in the past, CG feels very guilty and stupid when he behaves badly, so I always say, ok, let's let that go and move on. He is good for awhile, then does his stupid crap again. This time I'm going to go POOF. Since doing the same thing got me the same results (hellooo). Let's see what happens. Stay tuned for further adventures!

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Loretta,
"He gave me some good advice: he said I was too predictable and reliable, and although that is counterintuitive (I mean, who doesn't like predictable and reliable? Like a good car!), I should stop responding to him in the usual ways. That would be me calling him out on his bad communication or disrespect and instead DON'T TAKE IT! Don't take it! Get up and walk out of the meeting. Hang up the phone. Don't let it go and pretend nothing happened."

LOL - you know what he's suggesting, right? He's suggesting no contact:

http://www.aphroditeastrology.com/2012/11/dating-when-why-how-use-no-contact-rule.html

Meaning, don't use your WORDS, instead, take ACTION. Which in this case is the action of no contact and no response.

Men KNOW EXACTLY what that means - which is why your male relative is suggesting it LOL ;-)

loretta said...

MoA - exactly. I'm really terrible at NC, because I'm impatient and busy and need to get on with things, but this time I am going to do it. First off, because it will be totally out of character for me, thus unexpected and unpredictable. Second, because my silence will at first be interpreted as my being busy, but after a few days he will realize I am off the radar. Then it will surprise him. He won't know what to do.

For anyone here who believes in prayer (haha), or even sending good energy my way, send me strength. I stink at this NC thing. I will have to use all my mighty willpower to stick with it. But, when I make up my mind, I'm invincible. The timing is good. And I have a date tonight, tomorrow and Tuesday with different suitors who all seem nice. Yay me.

Gem50 said...

@ Loretta,
Sending good thoughts your way. Each time you practice this, it will get easier.

As Ms. Mirror says, actions speak. It applies to both men and women. ;-)

Take care of your self first.

Hugs for all.


sunshine30 said...

Loretta,

Hang in there girl. I'm on day 10 of no contact with a man I've been seeing for four months. This is the fourth man I've went no contact on. It does get easier with practice. I've been coming to this site every day reading and re-reading comments for support. I send you good thoughts and positive vibes! You can do this.

Fire&Water said...

@Loretta - massive gentle waves of good thoughts going out to you, girl! You can do this! I ttly hear you on being impatient :-), but patience can be cultivated...especially when you have a clear objective that requires it ;)
F&W

loretta said...

Greetings my cyber sistahs! I passed my first NC test. Yay! Casual Guy called at 4:30 today to see if we were getting together tonight. I had a day-long meeting and would have bailed on that anyway, but instead of answering I let it roll into voice mail. He left a short message asking me what was up. I didn't initiate any contact (email, phone) since last Thursday when he blew me off after our little romantic date, and when I told him I needed better communication from him. It wasn't the first time he had done that, of course. I not only let his call go to VM, I didn't return it. It's Radio Silence, folks.

As I predicted, he waited until the last minute to contact me, as though I have nothing else to do but wait around for him to let me know if we are working. I have never done this before, so it should be a surprise to him. As MoA has skillfully pointed out in several articles, men know when they have been jackasses. He will realize it pretty fast, especially since this is completely unexpected of me. He will think, holy cow, she is pissed. She is ignoring me. I was a jerk. Again. What now?

As MoA has written, if he wants to continue any sort of relationship with me, finish our projects and keep me in his life in any way, shape, or form, he will have to tell me what he is going to do differently. He broke it, he can fix it.

I'm not going to respond to anything short of a heartfelt apology, regret, and a resolution that will take into consideration my very reasonable expectations. If he just tries to woo me back with youtube video links, jokes, pictures of our dog, or drunken flirting texts in the middle of the night, no dice.

Thank you all for your support. One point for me. Zip for CG. lol

Anonymous said...

@loretta
Yes, one point for you... Let him stew a bitLoL.

I used to struggle with NC when I was "dating" the cyclist. He deserved NC so many times and I did manage NC for some several times but when he reappeared I always went back quickly to our usual routine because he was my only cycling buddy and I wanted to go cycling (big mistake). Once I accidentally forgot to reply to his text for a few days and it really annoyed and surprised him , it was so unusual of me. However, I spoilt it by saying it was accidental so I lost the advantageLOL. NC works the way Mirror explains it but it´s necessary to stick to it. So stick to your guns:-)
Hopeful

Anonymous said...

@Loretta
Nice to see how MoA lessons are making their way in yojr relations with Mister Casual ;)
Go ahead lady!!!
I laughed reading your part concerning youtube videos and pictures of your dog :D
Last week..one of my ex Mister Right (who appeared to be the epitone of Mister Wrong as a matter of fact) tried to remind him to me..by sending a picture.
A wonderfull black and white view of the Las Vegas MGM Grand from the window of his hotel room.
With this caption "7 error game..will you find the error?"
It was...in the very corner of the picture..a little piece of his..well. .his...hum...paradise bird :$
What to say.... MEN!!!!
;)
Virginie

loretta said...

Hello everyone. I have been consulting with my nephew (the male relative I reconnected with at my dad's funeral) who is only 10 years my junior. He is struggling with a difficult relationship as well. We have agreed that the best lesson we can learn with this is to teach others how to treat us. It's ironic, because the only person in my life right now (or for many years) who mistreats me at all is Casual Guy. I have no toxic people in my life other than he. That's progress! However, it's so blatantly clear and rings like a gong. I've been in recovery almost 22 years, and over that time have eliminated all sorts of toxic influences. I learned I don't have to suffer needlessly. If life hands me a challenge, I take it, I solve it, I learn from it. But I do NOT have to tolerate disrespect. I'm not a martyr.

Last year I had a co-worker who was a very good friend of mine (when he was my supervisor at a previous job) whom I assisted in starting his own business. I was really excited to do everything I could to help him succeed. Long story short, he screwed it up. He no-showed at events I organized, he got a DUI, he got in a car accident, he started going broke, he threw away all the opportunities I set up, etc. I finally washed my hands of him, reluctantly but in order to maintain my sanity. I never thought he would be so dysfunctional. While I didn't consider his behavior any direct mistreatment of me, I realized I was wasting my time and resources on him when he could not perform.

He is probably an alcoholic. I could not enable him any longer. It's the same with Casual Guy. I have challenged his assumptions, confronted him about his behavior, cut him off from me in any romantic way for over 5 months, set good boundaries, and walked away many times only to have him admit his shortcomings and agree to change. He didn't. I can't allow it any more. I suspect it will take him awhile to think I am serious, since I have forgiven and gone back so many times before. I do feel this time there is a paradigm shift. Better late than never!

When he finally realizes I am serious, we will have a conversation that renegotiates the relationship. I'm not a big fan of Dr. Phil's, but he has some very good advice: we teach people how to treat us. If CG is the only person in my life I allow to mistreat me, I'm doing pretty damn good! But for me, even ONE jerk is one too many!

All of us need to learn this.

loretta said...

Happy Friday all. I'm still going strong with my boundary setting with Casual Guy. He must have figured out pretty early (probably after I didn't return his call on Monday) that I was hurt and fed up with him. He hasn't tried to contact me since. That's ok. It's not like a Mexican standoff. Nobody will die as a result. (haha). I also have read many uplifting and helpful books and web sites that deal with "emotionally unavailable" men, and it has bolstered my decision to keep some space between me and CG until he can offer a fix to the communication issue. I don't want him as a boyfriend (he's the worst boyfriend, ever), but I would very much like to finish the work we have done and see it produced. I won't let that dream go, so I will find a way to do that.

The difference between CG (who is emotionally unavailable because he's an alcoholic; but may even be that way sober, who knows?) and a guy who is a narcissist is that CG doesn't have a fake personae; he doesn't come on strong and develop whirlwind courtships to then fade out. He's never all in from the get-go. He made no bones about wanting a casual relationship. I was ok with that, because I didn't want anything serious, either. I was on the rebound when I met him, and he helped distract me from a heartbreak. We had tons of fun together, and then started working on the script. We never had a serious relationship. There is no future in a romantic relationship with him as long as he drinks.

Much of the advice online about "no contact" and "emotionally unavailable" men labels them narcissists. However there is a big difference. You can't have a mutually satisfying relationship with either one, but the narcissist is toxic. He will con and cheat you, he will use you and throw you away. The EU guy will just never show up. He's not that malicious. He's just broken. Or stupid. Or both. You can't fix either one.

Although I am a card-carrying member of the Great Enabling Club, I do know when to hold 'em and to fold 'em. All I want from this No Contact technique is to show, by my actions, what is acceptable treatment of me as a professional, as a work partner, and as a friend. No more. No expectations he will suddenly fall all over himself trying to win me back. No. Just: 1) Respond to my emails about the agenda of the meeting or ideas about plot/character, business ideas, etc. in a timely manner. Like the same day. 2) Confirm the days and times of the meetings and don't flake out. If you have to cancel, do it by noon. Respect my time. and 3) show up for the meetings prepared and focused and ready to work, and don't be distracted by the bimbo du jour or your drinking buddies.

It's really pretty simple, very reasonable and completely logical. If he can't do that, well, I'll go it alone.

loretta said...

Hey all! I have been so busy (which is good), and things are going to get busier. I had to do a bunch of training and updates for my job, I had social engagements, dates, and my son keeps me on my toes as well. When I had time, which wasn't often, I would obsess about the whole "no contact" thing with Casual Guy, who probably got spooked when I vanished. It felt like a burden and a waste of time, because even if he felt bad and knew I was mad at him, it didn't mean anything would change.

I wound up forwarding a business-related email to him, to keep him in the loop as a professional courtesy. He responded to it with lightning speed. LOL. Of course. We have one little thing to finish up on the script and then there are other issues we can address without having to actually get together. I can do almost everything going forward over the phone, via email or when we have a meeting, wherever that venue is.

After tomorrow, I don't see any reason to continue going over to his house. If he brings up the second screenplay we started, I'll tell him that I can't work with him anymore on any further projects until he fixes his communication problems. I simply don't have the patience for it anymore. If he brings up the 2 week no-contact (and my not taking him to the party), I'll tell him that was a proverbial shot across the bow: stop what you're doing or expect the torpedoes next!

Going over all the possible thoughts he had, or whether he felt punished, or whether or not he even noticed, or whether he is going to straighten up? Waste of time. I can work on my own projects and if he wants to be a part of them, he can give me a good reason to let him in.

"No Contact" is good for walking away. It's not good for expecting someone to change. If they change as a result, great, but the idea of that will just eat away at you. Better to just get on with your life, quit looking at the calendar to check how many days have gone by, and fill that void with new people, new hobbies, fun and fulfilling things.

I had two dates with a guy who seems to want to jump my bones in a hurry. I am playing it very cool. I have a second date with the TV writer, and look forward to exchanging ideas with him. If Casual Guy gets a clue, he will have to show me with his actions what he's willing to do differently. Apologies and lame excuses will no longer cut it. He may only get worse, not better, because of his drinking. I need to be realistic.

Anonymous said...

Hi Mirror. My DM just text me yesterday asking how I was and that he was thinking about me and he was wondering if I wanted to go wine tasting with him and his friends for his friend's birthday. I have ignored him for a good 6 months because he disappeared on me for a month, but this wasn't the first time he did that. He attempted several times by text to ask me to do stuff and then sent me an evite, but I ignored all of it. He hasn't reached out for a few months since I ignored him until he reached out yesterday. I just don't even know if I should respond or not? Sad to me that he can't even pick up the phone after all this time. He knows I am ignoring him. Do you think I should reply or let it go?

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Sep 25, 10:42 AM,
"Do you think I should reply or let it go?"

Ultimately, the choice is yours. But if this man has never apologized and instead, keeps touching base once in a while as if nothing has happened, and you accept that and let him back into your life. . .this situation is ripe for a repeat if there's a response from you.

His actions are already showing a "rotation" - he's juggling balls in the air (women) and when one drops, he's keeping the others in motion by circling around occasionally and touching base with them. If you contact him, sure he'll probably see you. Heck, he may even call you if he has to. He may take you out two or three times and he may sleep with you.

And then. . .POOF.

He'll pull a repeat of the first situation and he'll disappear again, only to circle around a few months later as if nothing's ever happened. . .and on and on it goes. The circle that is his romantic life.

He's behaving very casually here - he's not getting serious and holding a talk with you or offering an apology. He's not getting real. And casual behavior like that signals that there will be more casual behavior in the future.

If you're not interested in anything casual, and instead you're looking for something real, then I'd leave this juggling clown in the circus where he belongs LOL ;-)

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Mirror. I think you are right. He has not offered an apology at all and just acts like nothing has happened. I actually did respond since I have ignored him for a long time. Funny thing is he tried to put it on me. I said it had been a while. He said he was still waiting for me to take him to get ice cream. Last time we were together I told him to let me know when he could get ice cream for his birthday. He never did. I told him he was supposed to let me know. He said he thought I was. I said nope. I am not letting him put it on me. He said that he would love to take me up on that offer and would love to take me wine tasting. I didn't respond to the ice cream comment because I am thinking really? I'm not going to go wine tasting. I think he just needs a date and I haven't been around him and his friends for a long time and I don't want to be at this point. He also said that his son just moved to NYC for college and that he was sad. So now he wants a shoulder to cry on? Maybe that is his pity party and he thinks I will feel bad for him and want to go? I agreed to dinner Tuesday night just to see if he will apologize then. I am going to treat him as a friend and that's it. I should probably leave him at the circus like you said lol

loretta said...

Hello Anony above w/ DM who reappeared. Here is something I learned from a very wise old friend, a veteran of many campaigns (as he likes to say, lol). He told me to always be aware of what a man asks you. What did this DM/RM ask you? We know he talked about his situation, but did he ask you about yours? Did he ask what you have been up to, anything interesting going on? For all he knows, you are involved with someone. You could have a new puppy! You could have a new job. You could have won the lottery!

If he doesn't ask anything about you that is real, and only talks about himself, I don't care if he apologizes or not. He isn't worth a hoot. Buh Bye! I wish I had learned this lesson 20 years ago. Any man who doesn't take an interest in your life isn't worth having more than a drink with. You can tell right away.

Even tho Casual Guy is the world's worst boyfriend, he never spends time with me without asking about my work, my son, my tennis game, my car, my life. We are friends first. I finally had to break NC with him after two weeks, and it was even longer since I had seen him and "our" dog. The dog went crazy when he saw me. CG and I FINALLY finished this screenplay and we have agreed on a new set of rules going forward. So far, he has followed them to the T. I really hope he keeps it up because we are a good team.

New Beau had a third date with me. It was fun. He has some money connections that he offered to share with me regarding producers for my movie. Meh. We'll see.... He is a little bit aggressive with me in the S*X department, but I can handle him. When I left our date at midnight (like Cinderella), I felt a little like a tease, but it's too bad. We are too old for that stuff. He can handle it. He invited me to come over the next day. I shrugged and said maybe. Then later the next day turned it down. No couch dates for me, either! haha

He is very good about keeping in touch. And we are comfortable together. But, I get the feeling he is not too deep and doesn't want anything beyond fling. If I were in the fling mood, he would be a good one!
I had a second date with the TV writer, and he got drunk. He's funny, but that is not going to work for me. One drunk creative guy is all I can handle.

Met a really nice guy on Friday for lunch, and he so far seems the most normal and gentlemanly of the bunch. We are having dinner Wednesday. He lives close by, he's not gonna jump my bones the first chance he gets, and he is very available: emotionally and by circumstance. Stay tuned. lol

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Loretta. You have a good point. We are supposed to go to dinner tonight. We will see if he asks what I have been up to. All he said the other day was hope you have been well. It does seem like in the past it was all about him all the time and that he had 5 kids and was busy. It's funny because I went out with another guy not too long ago and he talked about himself all night! Good for you getting to go on dates with new guys! Yes! No sofa dates. We deserve so much more than that!! Keep us posted on Wednesday's date!

Anonymous said...

Hi, I am 42, he is 39. Both divorced, I have 2 kids and he has one. We were set up through a mutual friend. He called her to thank her for setting us up after our first date. We had 2 dates that went very well. He set both of them up, both times sent me a text the next morning saying he had a great time. In between he would send text and even call to say hello, every few days between 3-5 days. We spoke on a Saturday then I didn't hear from him until Wednesday morning to say he was thinking about me last night. I replied to say I was thinking of him too. He joked and said, sure you say that to all of your Italian Friends (he is italian). Then we talked about going out again. Then Saturday he sent a funny text about needing help with his email (just a joke we had when we were out). Then he was texting back and forth. I was driving so I told him I was driving and to call. He did, we talked for about 10-15 minutes, he asked if I wanted to go out on either Tuesday or Wednesday. I said yes, he said he would call on either Sunday or Monday to figure out which and where. He never called and I didn't send him a text. He was having a big event for work on Sunday so I thought of sending a text to wish him good luck, but I decided not to. He has pursuing the whole time. I only sent him one text that he didn't start, other than that, he has started everything. He isn't a constant texter, would now and then, wish me a good day etc, but he has called as well to say hi, didn't only text, just now and then which was great. It has been about 9 days(I hear from him 2 Saturdays ago). I just find it so weird that he kind of disappeared because I know he was interested. I am dating others and going on with my life, but can't help but wonder. Am I doing the right thing by not texting him? Do you think he will ever reach out again?

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Anonymous Sep 29, 11:30 AM,
"Am I doing the right thing by not texting him?"

Yep. Let this lie on his shoulders. A woman should not have to reduce herself or sacrifice her dignity to contact a man only to ask why he isn't contacting her. You're never going to get a straight answer in those situation anyway. You're only going to receive either excuses or lies.

So leave this on his shoulders and let it weigh on him like it's weighing on you. This could turn out to be something rather innocent anyway. Or it could be a test - to see if you're going to become insecure and pursue and question, or possibly become confrontational and emotional, etc.

So stand confident and hold your head high. And let HIM wonder what's going on with YOU.

"Do you think he will ever reach out again?"

If he doesn't hear from you - probably. He may eventually become curious, or he may eventually have feelings of guilt about it (IF you leave it lay on his shoulders). And when that happens, chances are he'll circle back around.

Anonymous said...

From Huge Fan
Dear Mirror HELP!!! Please.... I told you about Leo man accepting my FB friend request and sending a message on the 3rd September. And you advised I do nothing and observe. I've done that, it's been really difficult. Today (30th sept) he liked a profile picture I posted . I still didn't react. And this evening he has sent a text message via what's app saying 'hello'. That's 2 message attempts ?? Would you advise I respond now . I would really like to start talking with him again . Do I wait 3 days ? And when I respond do I just say 'hello, nice to hear from you , how are you? ..I don't want to push him away again by being too keen or too cold . ?!? I would really appreciate your advice you are the only one I trust to take advice from and mentor me. P.s your coffee private chats are a great idea , thank you for offering them to us :-)

Anonymous said...

Thanks Mirror! This helps! I will not contact him, I do have to see him in about 2 weeks at a kids football game so I am thinking he may reach out after that or try to talk to me there. We will see.

The Mirror of Aphrodite said...

@Huge Fan,
"this evening he has sent a text message via what's app saying 'hello'. . .Would you advise I respond now."

The choice is ultimately yours. However, if you feel you're in a good place, and you can refrain from taking the lead or questioning him - responding in kind with only a simple hello - you can test the waters again. But after you respond, it's important that you refrain from taking the lead.

Think of it as a dance - he takes one step forward, and you follow that lead and take one small step forward yourself. Then you do nothing and you wait for his next lead (response/contact) - he takes another step forward (responds/contacts), and then you follow that lead and take another small step forward for yourself.

And in between each of his contacts, you do nothing and you observe his next action. Don't read into anything on social media - likes really mean nothing other than they like whatever they're seeing. Don't read anymore into it than that. Likes don't require an action by you, nor do they require contact from you.

And just take it slow, one step at a time, following his lead - and see where he takes you :-)

Anonymous said...

From Huge Fan

Thankyou Mirror , I can do the dance ;) , but do you think it's wise I wait 2 days to respond with my first 'Hello' , or just reply today (next day) ?

Anonymous said...

Slowly, but surely, I think I am on the right track. I had one date last week with a guy which went fairly well...I had fun, no red flags tho he allowed me to pay when I offered (not sure where I land on that), but follow-up post date saying he had fun and saying he'd be in touch. He asked me out again and we were to go out last night.

Four hours before the date, he sent me a text saying, "Sooo I just learned that I am leaving town in a few hours to go to a client meeting tomorrow morning." Me: "No worries." (Because I am not buying it -- work is the most overused excuse by men-- esp. when pulling a fade/disappearing act). Him: "Some disappointments (have no idea what he was trying to convey here)...Can't keep you waiting long." Me: "You're right about that."

Then, delete. It rubbed me completely the wrong way -- first, I don't believe he had to go out-of-town for work. I believe, for whatever reason, he changed his mind. Second, he couldn't have been too disappointed since he said nothing about rescheduling. Third, I am proud I didn't (a) comment on his last minute travels or (b) when I would see him next because really, he's just done. If he's pulling this on the second date, nope -- not going to get better from here.

Am I on the right path?!? I'd like to believe so -- but even when I see the red flag and get out upfront, I am STILL not attracting better people. It is utterly frustrating.

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